Don't you think this society lives only on false values ​​like money or job titles, for example? Well I believe so and it makes me terribly disgusting. Sincerely I think we can change .. how? With anarchy of values. Massive introspective interrogation is possible. Don't believe those idiots who say the opposite:They are only "men" who have made themselves domesticated and who live on vices. I have introduced the topic in a somewhat superficial way but with time and your participation can be extended. I'm ready to listen to what you have to say and seriously .. it's not just a "simple post to keep the site alive". No, this site has potential and I intend to use it to see how many people think similarly.

Interesting. I think you are talking about power. Basing an individuals power on wealth or some title isn't a good idea in my opinion. I like to say that in the stone age our society was all about raw strength, while today it is about raw money.

I don't see much of a difference between those two.

The really interesting question is how you obtain this power or wealth. What do you do to get it? This would be much more interesting than the fact itself. Because if you are wealthy, I want to know HOW you made all that money (obviously).

You put the word men in quotes. Surely there is a reason for that. Are you a feminist?

Before you start to worry... depending on what that word means for you, I am on your side.

No I'm not a feminist. By "men" I mean humans too human, referring to the philosopher Nietzsche. However The thing is, I don't care how some people climbed the social hierarchy ... because the problem is the hierarchy itself. I want to ask you a question, both to you and to everyone: if you could have all the money in the world, what would you do with it? Think carefully, I would be sorry to lose someone who thinks similarly. Later I will explain the true purpose of my post I will explain why all of you (supporters and opponents) are important ..

I know Nietzsche. Schopenhauer fits me more, but still...

I agreee that the ladder is the problem. I just had a discussion with someone who would define "society" like "we finally got rid of the rule of the strongest". I would say, well, you replaced the rule of the strongest by the rule of the most wealthy.
When I kill a beggar it's murder. When I piss into a golden toilet while other people starve, it's called civilization.

Your question is a difficult one and it depends on what you mean by "all the money". If you mean it literally, I would destroy all this money, so that the world can start anew with a blank slate.

If "all the money" is meant as "a lot", destroying it would have no effect. In that case I would buy a penthouse in Tokyo.

If you want to talk to me in private, my mail address is: izaya@ka10.de

Good! You answered in an excellent way and completely in line with my way of thinking, wonderful .. however I would very much like to talk to you in private however this post will not end here. answer all you read! You too can participate, it can be profitable for everyone.

Everyone, do not forget that YOU are the Dollars. Everyone of you. And everyone deserves a better life. Let us work together and make it happen.

>>4>>5 I'm intrigued, but my mind couldn't comprehend to bother in this kind of topic. Please continue discussing, I'm listening.

I'm glad there are a few people who care. It is not a factor of concern, but a fact of revolt towards this whole system. I am the first to understand that the system may be necessary, but is THIS system really necessary?

We live in a world where each of us is fundamental only. Every talent is replaceable, every relationship is replaceable. In a world like this, material values ​​such as money, telephones, machines, etc. they are used to distract everyone: do you think of making a protest, an uprising, writing a post to bring people together? No problem,I distract you with the new cell phone released on the market.

We are all forced to live at the mercy of the events that these fake gods (world governments) choose. And honestly I can't be good, I don't want anyone to command me. I know I have written many things, perhaps a little confusing but with the time and collaboration of those who join together the ideas will begin to be clearer.
I have a real goal in my life. A goal that is not exactly intuitive and quite complex but I am sure that by hearing the opinions of real people in addition to those I already know I will be able to Understand many more things.
>>6 Oh, right, Matto where do you prefer to be contacted?

Interesting topic and ideas presented here. I think the issue is the fact that everyone wants to change society, to live in a world in which things are different, but either they don't know how or think it would be too difficult to enact change. I think a hierarcy could be good, if done right. Sadly, it has yet to be done right.

Honestly I think the desire for change has it all: each of us has the desire to revolt in our heads and those few who do not have it is because they know that a change would take away benefits to them.

Anyway,being that all, or most, have this desire .. well, you should give them a "push" no? It is certainly not easy, but it is certainly not impossible.
The fact is that these fake values ​​give even the poorest people something to lose, but it's an illusion. They make you believe you have something to lose that you don't really care about. It is a perfect one handling. As long as there is a large amount that believes it is obvious that the system stands.

come on, don't sleepyheads!
Also ask questions if you are curious!

"The fact is that these fake values ​​give even the poorest people something to lose, but it's an illusion. They make you believe you have something to lose that you don't really care about. It is a perfect one handling. As long as there is a large amount that believes it is obvious that the system stands."

There's a (quite old) professor of communications and philosophy in my country who I like. He uses a term which I would translate as "potential energy of change". Everyone has this energy, this "urge to change things to the better", but it can easily be diluted by (1) making the system good enough AND/OR (2) creating pseudo-conflicts which occupy people's minds (basically the "divide and conquer" approach, i.e. how fascism works).

My country's (Germany's) social system came into existence in the 1880s. Back then we were a monarchy ruled by an emperor. And during this time, the ruling class was so scared about a worker's revolution that they tried to appease the people by giving them a rudimentary social security system ("rudimentary" from today's point of view). That would be a good example for (1).

interesting the term but I have not fully understood the message you want to give with this post. however I studied that it is a particularly chaotic period and very prone to speciation (I leave the meaning of the term to you) here, remaining metarealists (i.e. that realism that has an eye for true reality, not the one that is shown to us), I believe it is a completely favorable period for change.

It is not for me to choose what is the best way to change but history teaches us .. unfounded.

You said "The fact is that these fake values ​​give even the poorest people something to lose."

I just elaborated on that. Everyone has to make the decision to either aim for something better, or to be happy as he or she is right now. The more happy you are now, the less likely you are to invest yourself in changing something. The energy you are okay with spending for making things better could be called "potential energy of change". That's what this professor I mentioned talked about often.

The basic idea is: The more you got to loose, the less inclined you are to invest energy in overthrowing the current system for some vague alternative system.

Speaking for Germany in particular: We have universal healthcare. So even a homeless beggar has health insurance, basically for free. In the USA, someone who's homeless won't have health insurance normally.

So a typical German would say "okay, but no matter what happens, I will always have health insurance". That means: He has something to loose! If you are homeless in the USA, you probably will not have health insurance, so you have nothing to loose in that regard.

You get what I mean?

And these are the people I consider repugnant and passive. As understandable as their reasoning is not justifiable. Be balls on the feet of those who want the Change. They passively respond to pain and it is wrong.
And unfortunately there are also many people like this and that's why the system goes on.

If you are very wealthy and scared about loosing your money, I do not care much. But I do care about people who have nothing but their universal health insurance.

I do not care if someone like Trump isn't a millionaire anymore. But I do care if some homeless man looses his health insurance.

That is a difference, a big one.

If you take from those who have "a lot" it's no problem, but you cannot take from those who have "nothing but".

Our western society, as it is today, is wealthy enough to allow everyone to have health insurance and free college education. Some countries do that, like mine, some countries do not.

Whatever new system you come up with, you absolutely need to be better than what we have today. As for me personally, I never got why we handle speculation on the stock markets differently than gambling. For me, it's the same thing, and it should be taxed in the same way.

There's really no difference between playing Poker and guessing who's shares will be the most profitable the next day. That distinguishion is totally artificial.

Don't get the idea that I'm suddenly against you. I just have to make sure that you really thought this through.

then, let's say that I am referring to something less specific than health insurance for example. The positive things don't necessarily have to be changed about this system of course. There is to be honest, the society is changing psychologically and the attempt to maintain this system is a vain and retrograde attempt. There is an unwritten law which is known to all to "forbid change".
If you notice it, all people are calm if things go "as expected" even if the above things are terrifying.
But when something goes wrong everyone loses their mind. This happens when a company is too sensitive: like this (just see what happened when the virus broke out). And such a passive and sensitive society automatically becomes: cynical, apathetic, vulnerable and stagnant.
That's all..

nothing takes away from that homeless person to be happy despite having no money or home. he can be happy even just to have a common place where he can hang out with people like him and give value to this kind of thing, leaving aside the false values ​​imposed by society, these for me are PURE people

That's normal. People *never* point their fingers to themselves.

People never point their fingers to the real culprit either. I remember that big crisis in 2008/2009. What the common folks wanted back then was dangerously stupid, thanks to the one's in power.

What is your favorite society like? For me? Easy: Free utilities, free public transport, free healthcare, free education. And that's not at all unrealistic.

Where are you from? Would be interesting to know. Me: West-Germany.

As for me, I was homeless for two years and I did not have much problems with that. I can survive everywhere, I'd think.

But the think which bugged me was that we have about 50 thousands free appartments... and the only reason those are not really free is that a minority of people were speculating with that real estate.

I agree with your ideal company but I would also add the possibility of going abroad for everyone without it being a goal for the few as it is today. And they are for the open society, where i governments have a less divinatory position.
I don't know whether to say which country I am from, I would not like to sincerely create prejudices or stereotypes. Let's say I'm stateless.
The position of each of us is not relevant, the important thing is the concept of our philosophy. Exactly like V of v per vendetta for example: isn't important who stay behind the mask, the idea is important.

Oh So you were a homeless man, I'm sorry. But that's exactly what I'm referring to! You were certainly not born to live as a homeless man and none of us deserve it. Each of us has to live the way worthy in itself. But until a perverse and unhealthy system like this changes ... well, there is little to say And we all know that "with good things" nothing changes because we are seen as weak.

No need to be sorry about that. I learned a lot of interesting skills during that years: (1) The english language (2) Picking locks (3) Surviving, no matter what.

I think that is very impressive.

Thanks for answering, Viridian. What exactly is impressive for you?

From my point of view, it's impressive because you lived outside the system, which not everyone would be able to do since they see no life beyond the system.

It's not that easy. A lot of people would be scared because they, as you say, see no life beyond the system.
But when you get into that situation, you do not have time for questions like this. You have to survive. You need food. You need a place to sleep, so that you don't freeze to death.
It may sound romantic, but it isn't, and it's hardly philosophical either.

you need a whole fucking lot of ideology to make this happen

there is no need to use vulgar terms. anyway, what do you mean?

I think what they mean is to make a system that throws out all of the mechanisms that makes the previous system work will be very difficult. Actually it would be pretty impressive to even think of. Although I've got to say this is a very interesting discussion.

That it is difficult is obvious, but it is not an excuse for doing nothing and holding back any personal goals in this regard.
The fact is that many are led astray by the fact that it is difficult and so they start to think "oh no, this system sucks and must change" But they do nothing to actually change something and live waiting for a Messiah to arrive ready to save everyone
They are all victimized and lazy

how do you suggest we can make a change? the way society is set up makes it hard for people without huge amounts of money or fame to do anything powerful. if we are able to, though, I'd like to think there is nothing stopping us from achieving a better world.

in reality there is nothing that prevents us: money, fame, power .. all nonsense, all false values ​​that delude those who do not have them to be impotent and to submit to the choices of the other "powerful" ones.
There are many ways and personally I think everyone should do what they feel and can do. Pure freedom to act, but not Misunderstand me: I'm not someone who thinks we can change the world with words, indeed, only those who have money and fame can do it. but who does not possess these elements what can he do? :)

I am honestly amazed and super excited that someone else shares my view on our current society! I unfortunately have no good ideas on how to start, though... however, I do think that by spreading the word, we can at least get somewhere. That somewhere may not be very far, but it is at least a start. I say go for it!

Say you could make a change. There are always going to be people who disagree with the new system and try to take it upon themselves to act (kinda like we're doing now). Especially if these people who disagree are the ones who are losing more benefits then they are gaining, and since change doesn't settle in easily, theoretically they would have lots of support. Don't get me wrong, I think this is a brilliant idea, I'm just bringing up some things that came to mind.

I am very happy to see you so active and so similar to me. certainly the things you say are perfectly correct and it is true that there will be sedentary people who will not want to change. But I think they are much less than the others. In my opinion, we must eliminate the human feelings. However, it is right, indeed, funny that there are people who oppose it ..otherwise it would not make sense to change. There would not be that difficulty which, once overcome, will make the winners strong or if not overcome, it will make the losers heroes.I invite you to look for the term "titanism" and read what it is because it is what fully represents me and, seeing that you too are similar to me, titanism could identify you too.

I understand your point of that if everyone agreed then there would be no point to change, however due to individual perspective, everyone would have their own unique idea of a solution. Therefore one solution would not work for everybody, building off my previous comment.

Also I looked up titanism and, although I do not fully feel that it represents my way of thinking, it definitely resembles part of it.

Finally, could you elaborate on what you mean when you said "eliminate the human feelings."

human feelings? oh sorry, the translation was wrong I meant the humans attached to the past, who are the ones he represents the obstacles.

Oh ok that makes a lot more sense. I got pretty confused. Thanks for the clarification. Also, I completely agree with you in the fact that in order to move on and create something new, you need to break tradition. But how would we get those who are unwilling, or the obstacles, to see this from our point of view?

I honestly believe that people cannot be completely changed, especially people who are totally convinced of their point of view. In fact, they must not be convinced with words but with deeds. Actually, it is not to motivate, even history teaches how much power the individual will has!

To quote a Mazzini:all the great ideas that improve humanity, began to manifest themselves in opposition to beliefs that humanity allowed and were preached by individuals that humanity mocked, persecuted and crucified.

What we need: Spirit of sacrifice, will, free will and determination.

The Corona crisis is pretty interesting in this regard. For me, it changed almost nothing, apart from that I had to stop visiting my grandma.

Yet in the supermarket, I constantly see people complaining how they cannot buy their favorite expensive food stuff anymore, because it's out of stock. I always said that there will be a time when people will learn that you can't eat money, and that time is now. People will learn that an underpaid healthcare system is indeed a problem. They will learn how important low-wage jobs really are for a society.

Or at least... I hope they will learn.

in effect this is a period that goes "to my, indeed, to our advantage" from this point of view. however I don't put any hope in people .. maybe only those like us have already understood and they matured in this period. Honestly, I count on them, on those like us, on others I care what is right and indeed I will celebrate when a large part of the mob understands! I want to celebrate, organize a party in our honor - and to do so I will accomplish my goal. In fact, I've created this thread just to see how many people were awake to the crowd; I wanted to see reality with my own eyes. And you have not disappointed me even a little, you have been perfect and I think you will be: therefore the thread does not end here obviously.

Take me for charlatan, jester, one who shouldn't be taken seriously. Or take me like you want, for better or for worse. But I think the sincerity with which I write and reply to you is something real.
It's not a reproach or something, I just wanted to expose some of you to all of you :) so keep on participating! Infuse is something that unites us, isn't it?

Are you all able to create a work worth looking at?

Different things are worth more or less to look at according different people. It's a matter of opinion if something is worth looking at.
Does your question mean can we create something worth us looking at? Or does it mean can we create something worth the world looking at?

I mean for ourselves, it's all about interpreting what is meant by Opera or work

What does Opera and work mean to you, then?
I would appreciate some insight, it's hard for me to think right now.

My questions have to be interpreted, I don't ask questions where I am clear on purpose Because I don't want to get the same answers without personality. So if you don't have time or want to think, as far as I'm sorry, I think you shouldn't intervene.

People always created works of art. The oldest clues we have about mankind are works of art actually: cave paintings.

As for classic "Opera", you should take into account that these works were made during a time where it was normal that people just starved, or died of ailments which could easily have been treated. Most people couldnt't afford the treatment though.

I also think that you don't really get what we are talking about here.

Recently, some US politicians said that it does not matter at all if some people die due to Corona, because the only thing which matters is economic prosperity.

That is what we are talking about here. Letting people die even though society would be able to cure them. Letting people starve even though society would be able to feed them. Pissing into a golden toilet while people can't afford food for their children.

Basically, the barbarism of what we call civilization today. For me, it's really hard to listen to Beethoven while knowing that every 40 seconds some kid starves on this planet.

in truth I know very well the disgusting words that those rich 4 pennies have pronounced and I obviously agree with you. however I hear too much about the coronavirus and however dramatic the situation, this is not what I am talking about It is a serious mistake to base my speech ONLY on current events: my speech has no timeline.I opened this discussion to see how many eyes were truly open on an almost global level and the result is satisfactory, now I have more confidence to do my work.

concordo com voce o problema da sociedade atual não é atual é um problema que está presente em quase toda a historia da humanidade que é o fato de que começamos a atribuir valores especificos de maneira convencional,até mesmo começamos a atribuir um valor a vida de alguem o que é inaceitavel pois nao existe maneira de se medir o valor da vida,a maioria ou os poderosos decidiam algo e a minoria ou os fracos eram obrigados a aceitar calados e se por algum acaso alguem ousasse reclamar em voz alta ou seja ir contra a "opressão" bom sabemos o que acontecia e sim isso acontece até hoje as unicas diferenças é que é feito de maneira mais sutil mesmo que ironicamente todos saibamos e tambem que agora as pessoas se conformaram com a ideia de que não podem fazer nada e isso é so uma parte do pensamento das pessoas que são oprimidas atualmente pois muitas tem medo da atual "punição" caso se levantem que é ser excluido e por esse medo todas elas baixão suas cabeças cerram seus punhos e fecham os olhos e fingem que nada esta acontecendo essa é a outra mudança se comparado ao passado ninguem mais esta se rebelando e quebrando as corrente q as prendem a essa sociedade todos(sei que nao é todo mundo)deixam que os prendam e ficam parados sem em pestanejar e eu acho que é isso que devemos fazer dar um bom exemplo de como quebrar essas correntes de como se levantar e lutar de como se libertar de como se mover

Late repy: What I would do will all money if that is about the whole amount of them in the world - I don`t know, what is closer to my idealistic beliaves is to burn them but I am not sure. I fwe talk about money : Buy small appartment in Tokyo and use the rest to pay normal stuff so I can do what I really feel is important.

The change I want is not clear I just want change as my 5th grade slef was thinking - I want to flip the world upside down,I want to burn it all and show to the people what means to be free - Something that I still think

again people leave me positively surprised! your answers have been wonderful and I think I will insert them as proof of what I say in my book (The purpose of the book is the same as the thread). I see in you strength and will; I see your soul burning with passion.. and honestly, being surrounded by gray people, a poetic vision like yours makes me more than fascinated.

Keep your ideas in mind, don't abandon them: these "forbidden" ideas are the only strength. I will make sure one day you all can recognize you in mine opera. Is it a promise? No, if I fail I could never look at you with pride again..but surely my will will give me the strength to do what I want and want. I am physically alone, and you are, too, but ideally we are closer than you might think.

With the current situation we have been able to see the true nature of the people: the statements made and the actions taken not only give reason to us but give us the opportunity to breach the cracks in society and common ideology.
But what can we do from here? A lot, for example open discussions like this on other sites and when the situation will be over even live. We can really give something that helps us get started, the longer you wait, the worse it gets. For example, I opened this discussion and I am writing a book, in addition to "shaping" the thoughts of those close to me in real life.
As I said, everyone can do something and this something is always different. It is not an obligation but an invitation, we are not fighting for the same cause yet, but we can always start.

See this post as you like, I'm not trying to enhance the thought, I'm not here for that. I am only progressing gradually according to your answers. Finally, be wary of those who deny reality.

I find it very interesting about what you are tying to do. I think it is an amazing concept to gather people with similar ideals and come together to make a difference. I suppose my only question would be, how far are you willing to go for this?

Also, when you finish your book, can you tell us the title? That seems like a book I would want to read.

Do you want to know how long I will lead my dream? Until I die, I am very determined and having a dream is the only thing I consider important and sensible in life. Irony: a dream brings alive, but in return you have to give your life for it.

As for the book: I will certainly say the title if you are interested, but it depends on what nationality you are, for the language

também gostaria de saber o titulo,sou brasileiro por sinal,e também qual o meio que pretende utilizar para realizar seu sonho?

I'm pretty young, so I may not have comprehended this correctly. Tell me if I'm doing this wrong or if this was already covered.

In my opinion, any form of government will not work exactly the way it's supposed to. People tried to act on some of the values we see here. What did we get? Communism. I agree that a hierarchy can be done right, but no matter what, there are going to be some people who believe they deserve more than others. They believe that they are working harder than the people around them and whether it's true or not, they want their reward. Even if 'valuables' like money and power are superficial, they are things that people work toward have a better life. They are incentives. Jobs, society, work, all of that was ultimately used to give humanity a purpose and make lives easier. Also, you commended Matto on living as a homeless person for a while. Yeah, that's amazing. I never thought it was possible to live through something like that.
You also applauded Matto on living outside the system. Tell me, how are we supposed to live outside the system?
Also yeah, there are those people on the news who value the economy and money more than the people. I don't agree with that. If we all die there won't be an economy anyways.

what you say is correct and in part pertinent to the speech. But it would be a serious misunderstanding to attribute the dream of creating a hierarchy that works: honestly, as you said, in the long run it would be ruined like any other past hierarchy. My purpose is not to create a party nor to create a hierarchy or a world order. I want to create an anarchy of values ​​that is more a push towards evolution.

as far as "going out of the system" is concerned, unfortunately I cannot elaborate here, it would be too long. As long as you know that it is possible and consists of escaping from dogmas, principles and values ​​imposed by society. While on a practical level it consists in creating your own way that goes beyond the possible paths of society.
to give an example: leaving school CONSCIOUSLY, to lead a path chosen by you, despite this it will bring many risks and efforts

então voce esta dizendo que quer "quebrar" o sistema de valores atuais para fazer com que as pessoas enxerguem o quanto nosso sistema esta deturbado e assim causar(ou pelo menos ajudar a dar inicio) a algum tipo revolução?

Clueless as I am to most things I'd have to say that the mass collection and hoarding of wealth is a major issue for society

>>65 let's say yes, let's say no :)
even if my revolution is something purely idealistic and not warlike. it's difficult? yes, it is and I am proud of it.
however I should ask you to write in English and not in Portuguese.

>>66 please extend the concept

I acknowledge that my statement will sound too harsh but as part ot Dollars who are without colour I think I can represent the darker part of our gang.

In my oppinion Anarchy is what we need. We need people to Stop being affraid of " what next " because that fear makes them beliave that the responsIbility they must take after that will be way more havier and hurt them way more than the current state of - "It is bad but I can tolerate it "

That comes from our primary instincts,they are telling us to stick to the group and that includes the beliaves this group have that is why we feel anxiety everytime we speak what we beliave because 99% of the time our true beliaves are`t the same as the sistem beliaves so we either feel anxious because we are angainst the sistem or we are anxious because we are deceiving ourselves and the sistem by not being who we truly are.

“The bird fights its way out of the egg. The egg is the world. Who would be born must first destroy a world. The bird flies to God. That God's name is Abraxas.”- Hermann Hesse, Demian

This quote is perfect example of what I beliave in. People must see that their hidden desire for rebelion have form in the physical world and that it actually leads to freedom.
One of the biggest problems today that stops people from acting is low self-esteem and lack of beliave in once power as individual.This things are influenced by many factors but
accomplishment is of the biggest. Peope want money,statute and approval because they are taught to think that this things equal accomplishment that leads them to work jobs they hate because they pay more or lead to higher statute,approval from family /friends . So they choose to suffer large part of the time they are awake. That is because no one taught them that accomplishment actually comes when you do something you thing have value . Insted of filling up that void they bury themselvs deeper andfor themthe possibility of change starts to look not only harder but scarier.

That is why I think that one of the first thing peopel must learn is that there is no point to do something because of money fame or approval,if you do something you see as valueble you will learn the said topic of work easier and show better results.Outside the needs you have you don`t need more money , statute can be gain in many other ways and approval will not be needed when you beliave in your work,this is the way to rise the confidance in the individuals that they can change the world by being themselvs not what the sistem wants

Sorry for the bold letters

your statement is not harsh, it is an authentic poem. I also see a schopenhauer influence in you, which makes me very happy. you're right, they are all depressed and do not recognize their value .. also everyone wants to laugh and make people laugh: it is a clown company where nobody takes anything seriously.
These clowns believe they are worthless and mock themselves with jokes or black humor and do the same with other people or other events. People can only joke about the most terrible thing.

I don't think it's just the fault of society, but it is certainly this that triggered their instinct to be a clown.

however I would like to understand what kind of anarchy you mean. I personally find war anarchy amusing for the first 20 minutes, after which it becomes boring and sometimes unnecessarily brutal. Of course, it is a critical period: there are all the symptoms of a speciation or anarchy!
Honestly, I find it more poetic and free to give the masses the choice of two things: either idealistic or war anarchy.
I intend to create a situation where it is the mass that chooses what type of anarchy to create: the first brings no victims but evolution, the second brings victims and destruction and then evolution.

Real:

Did you ever read the book "Homage to Catalonia"? It was written by George Orwell, a few years before he wrote Nineteen-Eightyfour.

He describes a time period during the spanish civil war, mostly the year 1936, and how the province of Catalonia (where Barcelona lies) implemented a working anarchistic society.

--> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Revolution_of_1936

I am big idealist but also I am quite agrssive despite not showing it.In my mind I can see combined anarchy, bright individuals showing their idealistic views and desire for rebellion and change in agessive and non agressive means right into the faces of as you called them clowns and the authority.


I imagine it starting as sporadic acts of individualism and small organised attacks of the established order - I see maybe 1 to 5/6 people participating in these individual "incidents" [ As I beliave the media and the sociality will see them] will lead to more groups occuring and more organaized actions [The media will interpretatie it as "terrorism of the youth"] , because I think that the faces that will present the moovement will be mainly younger people [ 15-35 ,while many people in the middle range will have time to time participation in the actions and mainy behind the scenes. This actions will vary from someone using art as rebellion and never going to collage to actions similar in the series Zankyou no Terror that illustrates aggressive actioon without actually hurting people and still sending the messege

What is also important is to start to ask the questions twe ware told to avoid like the right we have over our death for example,something I will do in thread here on the main page so you can chat about it with me there

Mattto, the book you recommended seems interesting and I will read it, but to what do I owe your invitation to read it? why did you recommend it to me?


ZeroKai, What you say is a visionary and I must admit that it is very realistic as a prediction - and honestly it was like looking in the mirror, we think the same way.
I'd be interested in joining your thread.

Topics like death ,religion, social approval and ect are eimportant because humans ultimetly use them as skapegoat because they are affraid to take full unbiased responsibility over their own actions,desires and even personalities

Real: You made it pretty clear that you are interested in anarchism as a form of social organization. This book tells the story about the one single time in human history where anarchism was honestly tried out (and it worked).

ZeroKai: Yes and no. Most humans want to feel content and happy, and there's nothing wrong with that. The problem is that humans, even though they had a long time to develop, are still nudged by stone-age instincts and drives. When we talk about the stone age, we often talk about "hunter and gatherer"-societies, but in the end, most people today aren't much different. We just hunt and gather different things (i.e. money).

It is not wrong in itself to be after social approval. But the important thing is *how* we do it. A good way would be helping people in need, striving for a better society. A bad way is creating a facebook account with a fake-personality of yours.

Mattto - In my oppinion depending even for positive gain on any sort of approval ultimetly isn`t the right thing to do because it limits your freedom.You can get attached to that approval no matter of its effect and that attachment will control your decisions I myslefstill find it hard to deny approval or the lack off it so I struggle in gaining freedom

Well, you should not *depend* on anything, neither heroin nor social approval.

However, struggling for personal freedom can become a dependancy too, and it ultimatively leads to egomania and nihilism.

Where do you draw the line?

I think that with anarchy, all the things to which we give different values ​​(we who have the same idea). society is necessary from this point of view precisely because it gives them the opportunity like us to get out of it and formulate ideas and dreams that go against it, and for us this has a value.
moreover, anarchy of war and full of material chaos would be like dusting: moving the old dust (old society) to make room for the new one. Anarchism is only a means to attempt the evolution of society and confers freedom, too much freedom that the individual human does not know what to do with it.
while the goal of idealistic anarchy ensures that only the individual, mentally predisposed by genetics without the use of physical force, evolves. in the long run this would bring more changes than any anarchy, especially because it is more subtle.
Furthermore, to evolve part of humanity already predisposed but without the use of the wild stage of the human is also conceived as evolution

One of the mentors of today's capitalism (Joseph Alois Schumpeter) liked to talk about "creative destruction". In a way, he was right, this thing happens in most western societies. But it's not a good thing.

If you want to design a society which I would like, you just need to answer one question: "Imagine you are homeless and have no money. Then you get toothache. Is there a way out which isn't painful?"

Also, please explain your ideas about predisposision/genetics... I don't quite get it.

(if you want to chat with me, I'm in the IRC channel. A good time is 20:00 CET)

I don't want to create a new company, it's the company that has to create itself and needs a little push to do it - and I'll give it to it.
they are not against revolts, on the contrary, but I don't see it as a personal goal because I find it boring. if I were a homeless man with no money and I have to take care of myself, then it is obvious that I would use the strength to get the treatment I am entitled to. but they are two different events.

now I consider the human enough accustomed to evolve without violence, globally I mean and nobody will move in the short term until a scapegoat starts everything.

and being that it is an evolution on an intellectual level, let's be honest, only a few (a fairly high figure I think) are predisposed for such speciation. that's what I meant, I'm not devaluing those who aren't used to it - it doesn't depend on them

I didn't think about companies when I mentioned Schumpeter. He's just describing a thing which happens in this world. Everytime a big invention is made or some change occurs it creates both "progress", which is hard to define, and social chaos.

In a way Corona is the shock therapy most societies really need to wake up and change for the better.

It is almost a tradition that people doing manual labour (nurses, cashiers, drivers) get extremely low wages compared to managers, lawyers, tax advisors, CEOs and other white collar workers. Before Corona, I always joked that if all the lawyers would go on strike, nothing would happen, but if all the nurses would go on strike, we would have countless deaths. It's funny in a way how true this turned out to be.

As for the homeless guy example... in a society which could easily pay for basic income and healthcare, everyone is of course entitled to have it. That's what I believe the word civilization means.

Thank you all for giving me some hope of rational discussion, which I can hardly find on Chinese Internet. Some of your ideas make me feel like I'm not alone.After a lot of things have been deleted , I am pleasantly surprised to find a place to talk about society .

yes, somewhere we too - rarely. however it may be, take part in the discussion. so I will thank you

Real... can you give me some hints about what you would change if you could?

now I would like an opinion from those who have simply read the discussion. a simple comment, I don't demand anything elaborate. but it's just to know who besides those who have participated has an equal or opposite opinion.

Last message from Real

I didnt finish reading this whole discussion yet and Im new to this website Its only been couple of minutes but from what I got I recommend you all to watch a documentary called Zeitgeist I wonder your thoughts on it and would like to hear.

In childhood, it seemed to us that when we grow up, we will get an opportunity to do what we really want. However, in reality, it turns out that everyone around us has an interest in our life — parents demand we have grandchildren.

Think of it like this- People are bashful about discussing these things almost all of us get trapped in these psychological tricks at least one-time. As a result, we start to think along these patterns that were intrusively placed into our heads.

Being accountable.
Making a difference.
Focusing on detail.
Delivering quality.
Being completely honest.
Keeping promises.
Being reliable.
Being positive.

Well, all this people find no great difficulty in seeing, and few would like, publicly at least, to confess a regret for these conditions of labour, although in private some men, less hypocritical of more logical than the bulk of reactionists, admit that they consider the society of cultivated men and chattel slaves the best possible for weak human nature. Yet though we can see what has been, we cannot so easily see what is; and I admit that it is especially hard for people in our civilization, with its general freedom from the ruder forms of violence, its orderly routine life, and, in short, all that tremendous organization whose very perfection of continuity prevents us from noticing it - I say it is hard for people under the quiet order and external stability of modern society to note that much the same thing is going on in the relations of employers to the employed as went on under the slave society of Athens or under the self-sustained baronage of the thirteenth century.

Now, as always, there are only two things essential to the production of wealth - labour, and raw material: everyone can labour who is not sick or in nonage, therefore everyone except those, if he can get at raw material, can produce wealth; but without that raw material he cannot produce anything - anything, that is, that man can live upon; and if he does not labour he must live at the cost of those that do; unless, therefore, everyone can get at the raw material and instruments of production, the community in general will be burdened by the expense of so many useless mouths, and the sum of its wealth will be less than it ought to be. But in our civilized society to-day the raw material and the instruments of production are monopolized by a comparatively small number of persons, who will not allow the general population to use them for production of wealth unless they pay them tribute for doing so; and since they are able to exact this tribute, they themselves are able to live without producing, and consequently are a burden on society. Nor are these monopolists content with exacting a bare livelihood from the producers, as mere vagabonds and petty thieves do; they are able to get from the producers in all cases an abundant livelihood, including most of the enjoyments and advantages of civilization, and in many cases a position of such power that they are practically independent of the community and almost out of reach of its laws, although, indeed, the greater part of those laws were made for the purpose of upholding this monopoly; and wherever necessary they do now use the physical force which, by one means or another, they have under their control, for such upholding.

By his profit, made out of the unpaid labor of his men, the manufacturer must live, unless he gives up his position and learns to work like one of his own men, which indeed, as a rule, he could not do, as he has usually not been taught to do any useful work; therefore, as I have said, he must reduce his wages to the lowest point he can, since it is on the margin between his men's production and their wages that his profit depends; his class, therefore, compel his workmen to accept as little as possible. But further, the workman is a consumer as well as a producer, and in that character he has not only to pay rent to a landlord (and far heavier proportionately than rich people have to pay), and also a tribute to the middle-man who lives without producing, and without doing service to the community, by passing money from one pocket to another; but he also has to pay (as consumer) the profits of the other manufacturers who superintend the production of the goods he used. Again, as a mere member of society, a should-be citizen, has had to pay taxes, and a great deal more than he thinks; he has to pay for wars, past, present, and future, that were and are never meant to benefit him, but to force markets for his masters, nay, to keep him from rebellion, from taking his own at some date; he has also to pay for the thousand and one idiocies of parliamentary government, and ridiculous monarchical and official state; for the mountain of precedent, nonsense, and chicanery with its set of officials, whose business it is under the name of law to prevent justice being done to any one. In short, in one way or another, when he has by dint of constant labor got his wages into his pocket, he has them taken away from him again by various occult methods, till it comes to this at last, that he really works an hour for one-third of an hour's pay, while the two-thirds go to those who have not produced the wealth which they consume.

Sure, infact these are only a fairly important part of the various problems of this perverse society. although they are economically -
However, I find a certain link between these economic problems and the problems of the individual at an ideological and psychological level. I believe that both depend on the other. If you change one automatically, you partially change the other.

I don't feel I can accept such a world, I don't know about you, but I wouldn't bear to live my life transported by events and treated like an ant

I do find these proposals interesting and would enjoy to keep reading the discussion however I don't think I am able to contribute more than a simple comment so I at least hope this gets it more attention from people who think alike.

I know this may sound weird or mean but i'm not trying to offend anyone. The truth of the matter is a world like the one described here is a world that we only really find in Anime, manga, light novels ect... In the end we have to live in this cruel world with little hope. Even if we were to some how change the government it would only create more problems and might even end up in civil wars. I truly wish this world had something to offer but it doesn't. After learning this for your self a lot of people look toward things like the after life but, thinking like this only leads afterlife believers to commit suicide because they want a different world to live in. They hope that the afterlife is better than their life on earth. In the end what else are we supposed to do. Are we going to start wars so that our grand children have the slightest chance of having a better future? I honestly don't know. I don't think anyone really knows what to do. Please don't take this post as an insult to people or religion. I just wanted to share my opinion on the matter.

I see where you are coming from, however I'm not sure I entirely agree with you. You certainly bring up some interesting points that I think are definitely worth debating such as, starting wars so that there is the slightest possibility of a better future for the next generation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I interpreted that as you wouldn't want to risk what we have now for a future that is not guaranteed to be better. You think the risk is too great and things might get worse instead, so we shouldn't take a risky gamble in hopes that things might turn out better. Instead we should just keep things as they are. While I think this is a fair point, things won't get better unless we take that gamble. I understand that their are lots of variables and places things could go wrong, but even if we have the slightest chance, I think we should take it and try to make a difference out of it. Even if the difference is a bad one, at least we can learn from our mistakes.

Also, your lack of faith in our community makes me slightly sad. If we truly come together and try to make a difference, then we can achieve something even if it is small.

I have a lack of trust for our government and political communities because of past experiences, but I really do see what you are saying. The community that I do trust on the other hand is us. The Dollars! I think your right. Maybe as the dollars we could change the world. Even if there is the slightest chance we should take it. There's only one thing we would need to figure out. How? Maybe someone could start a group chat or something for people who want to help is this project and brainstorm ideas on how we might achieve a better world.

This world does have a tendency of putting value in material things or prestige. One of the side effects of that is people thinking there needs to be a place for people. When in reality, we are all people in this world trying to get through life, trying to find happiness and purpose. I see so many women around me who think that they need to have prestigious job titles to be of worth. Thinking they need to do a man's job to be able to be on 'equal' grounds to men.
When in reality we need to think about not the power of any particular role someone chooses, but rather the power of choosing what role they would like to take.
The power of free choice.

I thank all of you for making the thread active again, you left me amazed too. Saleb, it may seem strange maybe, but when I read your message I felt perfectly how you feel - I understand you and I hope you can continue to experience these emotions because they allow you to escape and detach yourself from that garbage.

Kat, thank you very much because you are my spokesperson! Really, you answered in the best way - exactly as I would have done ... better indeed! I wish I could really talk to you someday.

Fox142, you are partly right and partly not. In fact, I don't hide that I was annoyed when you said that the company described exists only in works of fiction. I have heard too many who say it and it is the worst thing to think because those societies described in books etc ... are inspired by real society - only that they are taken to the extreme to make understand the real problem to the viewer or the reader. Also the "how to do it?" to initiate a CONCRETE change there is not: or rather, there is no specific one. There are several ways to do it, just have extravagance and a sense of sacrifice.

Your resignation blocks this sense of sacrifice: society wants everyone to be resigned So as to avoid any kind of "imbalance" but it is a pessimistic and weak thought. A revolt must not aim at "winning", no! Every kind of revolt doesn't have to aim for its victory,it only has to turn with just cause, it must be a source of inspiration for the future and the present, a warning for all those who discredit it. It doesn't matter if you win or lose by being that that a war never ends in a short time. I invite you to reflect

la società in cui viviamo è fatta solo e soltanto di egoismo e ipocrisia, l'anarchia non servirebbe a molto, dopo questa situazione difficile che stiamo percorrendo tutti ritornerà tutto come prima.

una gang da parte di tutto il mondo si potrebbe anche fare, ci vogliono solo persone in grado di usufruire del proprio carisma.

Pls don't post it in main thread

/sage

as? this thread of mine has been here for over a month, why say it only now? I don't understand the reason and the meaning. In short, it has already been for some time without post, if now I had to move it to another section (which is impossible) as well as ruining visibility, it would stop the continuous flow of people who finally talk about serious and tabulated things! It is one of the few really important threads and I (and I believe others) oppose moving it.

Also I believe this thread to be under the category of a philosophical question which, if you check the FAQs, are allowed to be discussed on the main board.

>>98 I think it's fine to stay here. It also helps fight off the stigma that 'the site is dead' when its clearly not. I'd join in a heartbeat if only my mind could comprehend critical topics such as this.

It falls under 'actual topics of discussion' category which belonged on Main, and these kind of threads have existed through out the site's existence. Someone just needs to bump them up and spark the light.

Also, >>99 thought you're dead for good from >>87 onward. Glad to have you back captain.

Thank you so much Real. Your sort of thinking has made and amazing inspirational thread that many people have been inspired by. I really appreciate your opinions on my thinking and it has helped me see that we do have hope. I hope this thread continues!

thank you, really thank you all. Your appreciation is very important to me and I am happy to have reached many people and this is thanks to your participation. The captain is back because the truth never dies! I also thank those who opposed it, I counted on you and I was not wrong. And yes, the discussion will continue especially now that I am surrounded by all of you.

Start the madness~

Also I would like to talk in real time with whoever wants you, so if anyone wants to know that I am everything for you.

Speaking of serious topics, these days I have found many people who exchange my, indeed, our goal and our philosophy as a "romantic or decadent". I don't know if you know the thread of romanticism, but although it may seem very similar, I think that our thinking has shifted. Tell me about your considerations

I'm pretty scared.

It's been a long time since I think that human beings have lost the notion of `` value '' for everything that could surround them.
It has been a long time since I think that the human being is ready to sacrifice many lives (human / animal, vegetable ...) to keep his precious society based on the ideology of money, comfort and prestige. (Even if there are always people to break this system in their own way, for example by providing free help to people who need it.)

But it has also been a long time since when the human being tries to fight for his ideal in a way to bring together several people, there is the possibility that things end up becoming violent and deadly or so devastating for a part of the people who don't think the same way. Especially when it comes to world order.

I hope I have understand your idea Real. I sincerely thought these things that I mentioned above, and I still think them .. And I understand that my speech can stick me the label of a person who doesn’t dare not act ..
But allow me to have this fears that make me human and that make me worry because each human being is unique. And that therefore, the fact that nobody thinks the same thing will necessarily lead people to rebel. There will always be people who want to impose their ideas, want to massacre those who do not agree, etc.

History has taught us that human nature cannot change. And that we had to evolve through it.

What I mean is that I am a dollar.
That I am proud to be part of a non-violent organization at the moment (because there are no rules for dollars).
But that I am not a rough dollar.

So I hope, Real, that you are not someone who would like to acquire a power, a new hierarchy or world order, to repeat the same mistakes that our ancestors made in history with each change.
I hope you have consciousness of humans dark sides (in a philosophical way of human nature) as well as humans power to change.

I'm sorry if I ever misunderstood your ideas. English is not my native language.
And in no case do I wish to insult anyone .. Only to share my fear and my doubts.

I want to act, but I don't want my actions to have a "bad" or dangerous impact.

I know these fears well because I have already thought about and identified myself with "external" people just like you.

I must say that your message is very useful because it clarifies many things. first of all, I know the dark side of the human well, it fascinates me and at the same time I hate it .. but I know it. But there is no need to fear, my goal and I also believe the goal of the other participants is not bloody. I have repeatedly stated that war riots are not my goal, they would bore me and I argue that the current human being can evolve even without bloodshed. Although my dream is very ambitious and almost impossible, it follows a very strict rule that, in fact, I had never said: a dream, however big it may be, must not override the will of others.

For me it is like this .. infused dreams are the origin of the evil that is formed in a man: he fights, manipulates, kills for it - the rule of the jungle applies when he speaks of dreams, but it is a thought based on evolution that not wanting to override other dreams, small or large. moreover, my ideological anarchy will not be the end that will change humanity, indeed, it will only be the beginning of the doubt. If I were to fail my goal, in any case I would instill doubt in more people over time.
I have said it many times, my goal is only a necessary "push" at the beginning of the change and not the actual change.

therefore, I invite you to reflect on these things: dreams which include the origin of evil; the possible consequences of an anarchy of values ​​on the present and its future; the meaning of "do not override the will or dreams of others"

I wasn't/ am not against you. I'm just used to doubting everything, I'm certainly influenced by Socrate haha ​​..

I've already thought about '' dreams which include the origin of evil; the possible consequences of an anarchy of values ​​on the present and its future; the meaning of "do not override the will or dreams of others" ''

This is what inspired my answer earlier and feeds my fears and doubts.

But now that you said that you thought

'' a dream, however big it may be, must not override the will of others.''

I'm feeling better because that's exactly my point of view.

it is a right thing to doubt, it is necessary for everyone and obviously also for this thread so as to better clarify the points of view and explore new ones.

I know that I put Nietzsche in the middle many times, but this time too he comes to my rescue. Many of you ask me how it is possible to achieve such a goal. In fact I have always said that there is not one way, there are several, you just need to work your head and think about it. And in fact I think so, but I forgot a quote that is very important to me and above all it is enough about reality: If you have a strong enough why, then you can do every how.

I wouldn't want to be an optimist, I'm not even an optimist, but I think our "why" is strong enough to do everything

In addition, we are now a fairly high number, so for those who want to speak directly with everyone, you can join the group I created on Telegram:

https://t.me/joinchat/LNuUvxjmnGf8BgPBz9mYFw

For those of you who do not quite understand anarchy, here is and article that is really helpful. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/anarchism/#PoliAnar

interesting sentiment, although pretty hard to achieved. I do agree most humans go trough life like senseless robots just thinking about money or anything material. it is definitely disgusting and stupid. in my humble opinion knowledge is what can fix society, but not limited knowledge like we have now. Therefore, I do share your beliefs.

I would like to spend a few words on something that is not too relevant to the discussion.

being that I finished my first book that I will publish later, I made a choice: I will save all your posts and also all the conversations on the telegram chat and I will write them in a book, a bit like Socratic dialogues.  Your words will not be in vain, they will be saved over time and can be read by everyone!
It is a tribute to all those who participated and who will participate

Thanks for the attention

https://t.me/joinchat/LNuUvxjmnGf8BgPBz9mYFw

I'm more or less just telling this to myself but as "eren H" said knowledge might be the the answer to fix society. If this is true then maybe the best way to go about fixing society is leaking information. Please keep in mind this is just a thought. Anyways we shouldn't spreed rumors, I'm talking about sharing cold hard facts that the government wants to keep from us. I don't actually think this is a very good idea but it ways just a thought that came to mind.

today I was watching television; a service was broadcast that spoke of the current situation of covid19. The news they were talking about was quite pessimistic, but it was necessary to understand the updates of the situation. However, immediately afterwards, they broadcast a service about dogs.

Suddenly, my family became active: she was much more involved in the discussion of dogs, she was attracted as if she had immediately forgotten about the previous service: a much more serious and important service, wasted on the mere discussion of a dog's exploits "charming".

All wasted on a low value such as aesthetics - once again, people prefer nonsense instead of reality.

He doesn't understand that the perception of true reality is an invaluable gift, but everyone wastes it just because "they don't want to feel bad", they want to delude themselves more than ever! And this worries me ..

Libertarianism is the way to go for the world.

sure, it could be one of the many ways to redeem the world, but the problem is the values ​​that humanity follows.Like the undeserved thirst for power, money, fame ... and the rulers will not abandon even one of these values ​​in favor of libertarianism.

come on, people, give vent to ideas! I will be here to listen to you

So basically its like you want to change or "redeem" society because it is so corrupted?

Like I said and I think someone else mentioned too, sharing knowledge should be top priority in order to fix society. We should star by spreading massive amounts of facts and also acquiring information ourselves.

Maybe it is a pipe dream but, building a well designed database in which information can be gathered and share, that’s just my opinion

>>118 Very superficial but yes, I would like to know your opinion

>>120 That it is an unfulfillable dream is almost obvious, but you mentioned exactly what I should have mentioned, so thank you! Yes, spreading knowledge to open the eyes of those who are willing to do it is necessary. And above all to spread the truth en masse: if it were done by one person it would not be taken seriously, But if it were done by a group of people then .. it would be taken seriously and more people would join

Bump

I think the only problem with spreading knowledge and information, is the rumors and lies that come along with it. They are like a package deal, you can't have one without the other. Whatever facts you spread, people will make lies and rumors about it ultimately dubbing you an unreliable source of information.

which means that one can enter a state of mistrust and insecurity

but it is precisely when they begin to defame this network of information that one realizes that he is telling the truth.

And when you are transformed into enemies then there is nothing to do but attract attention and be talked about

i have to say i was not expecting that but i have to agree with you cause that is what will happen

True, information gathering must be accurate or it is worse than no information at all. Therefore, I proposed gathering well informed information brokers, for example one person could be in charge of a certain type of information. Then again that’s just my opinion

It's interesting what you all write, but I see one big danger here, and that is doing that "American Dream" thing all over again. You (I would say "we", but I'm not american) did that already, and the USA in existence today is exactly where the American Dream and libertarianism lead to.

If you want to have a world where everything is based on the size of your wallet with no accountability, you can stop fighting now, because that world already exists. Asking for more libertarianism is like trying to cure some toxication with even more poison.

If that's what you want, go ahead, but since I'm not a religious person, I'd be out then.

>>115 Libertarianism is the way to go for the world

>>116 Of course, it could be one of the many ways to redeem the world, but the problem is the values ​​that humanity follows: like the undeserved thirst for power, money, fame ... and rulers will not abandon even one of these values ​​in favor of libertarianism.

I immediately say that I am an agnostic, I hope this does not bring distrust or hatred towards us, I respect people's choices. However, I believe you misunderstood: I want to carry on my dream not someone else's like the American one. I said it COULD be one of many ways and not the only one. once again: this company of mine is only a push to give to society and not the best solution .. I am not required to say it, but the others will say it ... someday, maybe. You don't win or lose, you evolve or devote, that's all ... see me more as a 75% good opportunity and a 25% bad opportunity - everyone else will choose how and when to take advantage of me.

I don't want to get around to join me, I don't need false companions. I am not a politician, I am not a rich man, I am not a populist .. I am a simple type of road that has an ambitious dream and I am sure that, in the world, I am not the only one to feed a similar one. I don't need someone who doesn't have a dream like mine and I don't need someone who doesn't want to give their life for it. (I'm not talking to you, don't worry, I don't know what I dream of or if you actually feed one, I'm just specifying .. rather explaining who I am) and I don't lie, I don't emphasize only the positive sides of my dream (as a politician would do). Life is also a compromise, isn't it? But only by highlighting the negative sides can truly trustworthy people be found. Of course, I don't expect to find them on an online site .. but it would be a start, don't you think?

And to specify, I'm Italian and not American. Those who begin to stereotype immediately leave the discussion.

Hello Eveyone, the biggest problem, is that people are born into this capitalist society and this society rejects any alternatives, because they were shown that you can't survive in other systems, which isn't exactly true. Most people don't even question certain aspects of society, and thats the biggest problem "When people are forced to stop being critical about certain things that for the majority often seem normal".

Yeah I totally agree with Gerg86

Capitalism is the single greatest economic system that humanity has ever created. Nothing has lifted more people out of poverty (which, is the base state of human existance; NOT the result of capitalism) than capitalism has. All of you on this thread (Which, should not be posted to the main board btw), have never lived in Marxist/communist nations and it shows. The only advocates for these systems are those who have never lived in them, or are so narcissistic that they believe that they will be part of the new ruling class and not crushed under the heels of the political party that ends up ruling over them. Dangerous freedom is much better than living in a secure oppression.

point 1, let's hear: why shouldn't it be on the main? Does it bother people like you? In case I'm proud of it

Point 2, Here I blame many for having hijacked the discussion only on politics, it is ironic when it comes to anarchy OF IDEAS AND VALUES. Come on, politics is not everything and you know it. Politics does not change the world and never will. Is it so damned difficult to understand that this thread is the sharing of an idea related to my dream that is not thirsty for power, but is only a push for the future !? We don't base the argument on damn politics, I don't want to create a party, nor a permanent social or political power to crush communism or other economic systems! ...

Forgive me, I apologize. It's not a good time, now I'm going back to myself.

Point 3 I really like your last sentence! You raised my attention

Anzo, all I said was that information and education is lacking and that’s worldwide. I don’t really care for politics, the only thing I care Is knowledge and opening people’s eyes to society’s secrets so they can’t all live that’s not based on set outdated standards. For you see I lived in a couple of countries and their all the same, the one percent has 90% of the richest and judges the 99% for being normal(grounded in reality).

Bump

This is what good is for: to mask one's malice so as to obtain the means to do something else.

Good = a sneaky and hidden evil
Evil = an explicit and proud evil
Goodness of mind = result of selfishness

Anzo: In our world, every 40 seconds a child dies of starvation, while 5% of the people own as much as the rest of the 95% combined.

I can tell you, I live in a capitalistic system. And I hate it. And I can also tell you that A LOT of those people who "suffered" socialism before 1990 want it back after they've seen what capitalism had in stock for them.

Capitalism is no "invention" and no progress. It's just hunter/gatherer culture shaped into a religion.

Real: sneaky and hidden evil... sounds like me.

I like this guy better now

Like so often, you speak in miracles, dear Real.

I'm more of a pragmatist. When I want something, I just take it. I might decide going legit, but only when the big corporations start paying the taxes they ought to pay (and I don't mean "oh, we just move our HQ to Nicaragua and pay no taxes at all, yay!").

Until then, good luck.

so you are a pragmatic anarchist from this point of view. ok what makes us different? I am not at all one who "is on the side of the law" and obviously I am not one of many who speaks but not does nothing to change things; I don't wait for the upper floors or the big companies to decide to "change" also because it will never happen

I'm not on the side of the law either, for pragmatic reasons. "The law" favors those with big wallets and lots of influence, which is why all those court trials after some corporate scandal end in some smudgy way with noone being responsible. I especially remember that trial where some exec stole a million of tax-money, walking out of the courtroom on parole and giving a TV interview of how sorry he was. Cry me a river! When I steal a million, I get ten years, and no parole.

There is a neat saying in my part of town: "There's no ethical difference between founding a bank and robbing a bank."

The reason I do nothing apart from doing favors to myself is that the majority of the people are actually happy. And if they go out on the street for a demonstration at all, they either whine for yet another tax cut or some conspiration theory they heard on social media.

As hard as it may sound, as long as everything works for the majority, there will be no change at all.

Maybe our economy will collapse big time in the aftermath of Corona. I keep a bottle of champaign just for the occasion. That could be a situation where it would make sense to guide people to a better society.

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To draw conclusions, what do you think of anarchy of values? What values ​​should be considered important, necessary?
Tell me about your considerations on the subject and what consequences a real anarchy of values ​​would have

Be exhaustive! :)

To answer the person who said capitalism is the greatest economic system. I hate to bring it to you, but capitalism is failling as we speak, in fact, we are now transitionning into a post capitalist society. There are living examples of people who live in an anarchist society and maintained it, take Rojava as an example

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I don't know man I get that most of the problem in the world are based and allowed by human action and rules but I think that those same vaules allow human to not only survive but prosper. The dollars should be use to spread awareness in day to day problem making the world a better place even if it's a little solution.

That these values ​​allow civilization to thrive honestly is of little importance; indeed, the way in which it continues to thrive could be considered incorrect.

Look at it a bit like a computer program that evolves over time with the usual and persistent problem - and that everyone, or most, knows but doesn't want to solve

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