A statement that has become almost social suicide where I live: "I am against gay marriage." It does not mean I hate or am afraid of gay people, only afraid of what gay marriage and relationships do to the country and to those involved. I don't think I'm a mean person. I have what I believe are good reasons for thinking that way. But in a world where I have yaoi fans for friends and the president personally congratulates someone for coming out of the closest and being gay is suddenly considered something to be proud of versus being straight and every single person around me seems to step so carefully around that topic so as not to offend anyone that might be gay or know somebody who is gay, heck in a country that suddenly says you can actually choose what gender you are apparently are that their are more than 2, my seemingly very unpopular opinion starts to seem like something I have to hide. Because I voiced my opinion once, a brand new "friend" called me a homophobe in my own house and never spoke to me again, without even giving me an opening to explain my thoughts. Ouch. So long free speech.
I seriously don't mean any offense to anyone! I don't hate anybody. I have absolutely no malicious intent. Being against gay marriage is not the same as being against gay people. I'm saying all this because, even on the internet, I really don't want people to get the wrong idea like that friend did and say hurtful stuff or get all defensive, so I guess I'm kinda getting on the defensive first. Thoughts anyone? Anyone out there who thinks the same?

>>1 I am Christian and I see where you're coming from.
In the Bible it's expressed about 4 or 5 times that homosexuality is a sin, and that those who live it live a sinful lifestyle.

But what you need to understand is that the Bible also states not to stand in the way of sinners. They are there own people and allowed to make their own choices. That's what it means to have a free spirit.
On top of this, God has also said even more than 4-5 times that judging others is not our job. It's his job. Judging others is also a sin, so we are to love them as we do ourselves.

So in short: homosexuality is a sin, but it is not one for us to prevent by restricting their basic human rights, and is not one we can judge on, for all sins are equal in the eyes of God, and Jesus said only someone without sin can judge another person. He said this when men wanted to punish an adulterer, Mary Magdeline. The Western church tends to believe she was a prostitute due to the reputation of the city she was in, but even if she was, Jesus saved her from being stoned to death and let her on her way without any mention of "oh, and by the way, sleeping around is a sin." And since we are to follow in his footsteps, we shouldn't be seeing it as "gay rights", but as "equal rights".

Now if you're not religious at all or hold a spiritual conflict within yourself regarding the topic of equal rights, then... Yea,h you would be a homophobe.

When discussing this ultra sensitive topic, need to be able to express your Pinyan clearly and briefly. I rode up the story about it, but then my iPad's battery died and everything got deleted. So I'm going to give you the short version. My gay roommate confronted me one time because they miss heard something and thought that I thought him being gay with not only sinful but disgusting.
He was screaming at me about me judging him, about all that he's been through, about me being a homophobe, etc. at this point, it was a situation where the relationship could be damaged and you lose the person as a friend forever, and may even have to move out of the apartment since that friend is your roommate.

I told him clearly that "though homosexuality is a sin in my religion, it is not something that I can judge. Because also my religion, all sins equal. Someone who tells lies is just as guilty as someone who is homosexual. Someone who's ever done anything wrong in his life is as equal to someone who is homosexual. I'm not one of the people who say homosexuals are going to hell, because I am not God, and I cannot judge because I should not judge.
Not to mention, my religion shouldn't really matter to you, right? Aren't you atheist??
And come on... Do you honestly think...that I would be your roommate...if I was homophobic? Do you honestly think that after lending you an ear to talk about your boyfriend, or lending you an eye for fashion and your tailored suits, be okay with you bringing guys home, PARTYING with you, LIVING with you...if I was homophobic!?"

After a few awkward silent seconds, we were chill again, with him having a better understanding of my view.

>>1 I would really like to hear why you are against the marriage o; I wont judge you or anything

I'm not against gay marriage because it really shouldn't be such a big deal. I understand that some don't want it because of their religion. I am not religious. I believe that there could be a greater force above us but I don't go around worshipping it. I just live my life and be thankful that I'm living. I'm a big supporter of the whole LGBT movement and giving people the equal rights that they deserve. I am also transgender so I get some dirty looks when I go out in public. Even so, I don't go around saying that all Christians are bad because they hate gays, because it's not true. Not all religious people are bad and not all of them are judgemental, not saying that you are.

Today it seems that there's more hate towards religious people and their views on everything LGBT. People are hypocrites and they throw just as much hates towards religious people as SOME NOT ALL religious people throw hate at them. They say not to hate LGBT people, but sometimes it's hard to not be angry with some of them. They do the same thing, judging religions as a whole group when a lot of them are supportive as well. We're all entitled to our opinions and beliefs, but some just take it too far.

You are not one of those people. You're merely stating how you feel towards this topic and why. You believe that it's wrong because your religion says so. That's okay and some people just have to understand that it's not you directing hate towards them. Just like LGBT people believe in having equal rights, you believe in your own thing.

What's not okay is for people to hate on all religious people as a group because of some people who take things too far. It's not okay for religious people to hate gays because of who they are. That's not okay.

We all have opinions and beliefs. In the end, both sides will have to suck it up and deal with it. That's just how the world works. There's always two sides to things, conflicts, and then the resolve is sometimes good or bad. Depending on how you look at it. If people judge you for their beliefs then they are hypocrites and they obviously don't listen to reason. You should stick to your beliefs and make them understand that not everyone is going to agree with them. Just don't let them get to you if they won't even stop to truly listen to what you have to say.

>>5 PREEEACH

I'd be okay with it if there were more studies on same sex nuclear families.

This is such a great thread already. These discussions can be really interesting when people are patient and don't jump to conclusions.

>>1>>2 and >>5 all have different viewpoints on the matter, and I find myself agreeing with most all of it. I can see how you can be against homosexual marriage alone, but not direct hate towards homosexuals, for religious reasons or otherwise. I do agree with Magnolia, because I'm Christian myself. And what really struck me was what plzlikeme said about not being able to say what you really feel without being judged. Some people just don't want gay marriage to become the norm, and I can see that, but I don't think it will. Because I also agree Somniare. It's all just a bigger deal than it needs to be, I think. Homosexual, bisexual (and other) people make up less than 5% of the U.S. population, so I wonder why so many people are against it. Well, as it's been said, everyone can move on eventually.

What do you have against gay marriage, if you say that you don't hate them? What bad is this doing to the country? The World? -.- your arguments don't justify your reasons... It is NOT a sin, I tell you, as you analyze it in a religious context, but there is many ways to interpret what it says about homosexuality... I won't go further in this matter for 'good reasons'... *.-

Gay marriage is a big step humanity has taken, as humans are accepting that they aren't all equal, they are different. We have our own vision of the World, so you can't say that to negate the right a group of people were fighting for has your 'good reasons and good points'. People tend to be radical when a delicate matter is placed in discussion, and if they are at favour, arguing against it will only rise a situation just like what happened between you and your friend.

As for freedom of speech, you're clearly fitting into a category I had to study for a semester: The Hate Speech. You use the right of your freedom of speech to justify your 'negative' position upon a matter. Even if you don't offend anyone or insult anyone, just the mere fact of saying that you are against a right people are fighting so hard for makes them get offended. A deep offense to their integrity. We all have freedom of speech. But this freedom has a limit, from where your rights starts and to where the rights of the other starts-that's the limit. You can't surpass this limit, or you'll be 'damaging' their rights.

So, if you are against it, you have to keep your opinion, as it would only bring negativity towards the others at your surroundings. We seek for progress, and that's progress... Sorry if I sounded hard, but that's an objective vision of the matter that I have about it.

>>1 Free speech just means the government can't tell you what to say. And no matter what, even if you personally don't hate homosexuality, in what way does letting homosexual marriage happen even affect you? Will you suddenly cease to exist if a man finally upgrades his boyfriend to husband? Even if you personally don't hate homosexuality, being against their right to marry is still homophobia. The reason it's social suicide to say you're against it is because it goes against any progress that has been made toward achieving true equality.

>>2 Anything against homosexuality in the Bible is in the Old Testament, which stopped being relevant the moment your savior died on that cross. By using the Old Testament, you are denying the sacrifice of your savior, and if you do want to live by the Old Testament laws, you'd be surprised at the utterly petty things that you would be killed for, things which we now know as utterly petty and don't bury people and stone them for.

Essentially, >>10 has it right.

lol same. People are quick to judge and anger is really easy to fall into. I tell other people almost the same, that I don't like to hang around gay people (unless im drinking) not interested in their lives or rights just so as long as they have the same opertunitys as everyother American (and they do). Though I don't hate them, I would say more that I tolerate them. It seems to be atouchy subject but in my opionion everyone is too soft these days so it's not supprising. I think you should be honest though bro. I have discovered late in my life that being honest will lead you to few friends, but they will be friends you will make the best of memories with trust me.

>>12 You've got the right idea, dude.

>>11 ...No. It's in the Old AND New Testament. 1 Corinthians 6 & Jude 1:7.

>>10 Orihara san, I believe in this world there are opposites. Chinese philosophy already put that down for us!

If some people can openly say being gay is okay then why can't some people also say being gay is not okay?

What's seen as 'negative' might not be so to someone else and vice versa.

>>10 Actually, the bible is pretty plan about homosexuality no matter which version you look at.

I think it's only fair that people against gay marriage can say so (given that they are not mean about it). I mean, if we can't express our views, then how come those supporting homosexual marriage can? It isn't mean, it's an opinion. We can have opinions.

>>1 I would like to hear your reason.

Listen people, some are against gay marraige and you know what? It's already been legalized in some states. Maybe not by church, but we're making a big step here! Someday I believe that gay marriage will be tolerated, maybe not tomorrow, but someday. People who are against it will just have to deal with it. Unless they start saying rude hateful things to you, let them have their opinion! If they're against gay marraige, fine! Everyone has their opinion on everything! You have no right to tell them to go against their religion when they feel that way. They have no right to tell you to change because they are against the way you are. They have their opinions and beliefs, that's it. So do we. One day we'll all have equal rights and people will laugh about this whole mess. But there will still be people against what we want. That's just how life is. Two sides of the coin.

Let people stick to their beliefs. There is a difference to following a religion and being a total assholes to others, trying to push their beliefs onto you. LGBT wants rights and equality. Some religious people just have their beliefs and opinions. Don't take it personally. Just like they have their beliefs, we do too. Unless they are harming you or just being bigots, then leave them alone and let them voice their beliefs.

its a sad day that Gay marriage has become legalized and in some states if spoken against you can be arrested or sued

thats ridiculous. we have the right to speak our minds and stand for what we believe in. our government needs to get their heads out of their butts and realize how far down the toilet we're going

>>20 While it is true that you shouldn't be able to be arrested for it, being sued by someone is another matter. The freedom of speech only means you can't be told by the government what you can't say. Individuals or groups not connected to the government can still sue you over it if they so desire.

In any case, by saying that same-sex marriage is wrong, you are saying that people who love the same sex are not deserving of the same rights, and thus less than human. Were you to voice such an opinion to most, you would receive verbal retaliation. With some, such as this villain, your safety couldn't be guaranteed. The one that needs to pull their head out of their ass is not the government, leastwise in this regard, but bigots such as you that prevent progress toward utopia.

>>20 It depends on what actions or words that some say or do. You shouldn't be arrested for voicing your opinions and beliefs, but some people tend to take it too far with violence and aggression. People break into fights and start making things worse. I believe that gay marriage should be legalized because in my opinion, people who love each other should be able to marry each other and be happy, despite their gender. I understand that your beliefs are the total opposite of mine, but it does sound ridiculous to arrest someone or sue someone for JUST voicing their beliefs. Like I said, when you bring hate into it, that's when things are not okay. I completely agree with Magnolia. You have no right to judge us. I'm not religious but if some powerful force out there wants to judge me, then so be it, but as my equal human being, you should not judge me or others for wanting gay marriage or equal rights.

And lets be honest here, our country has been on an emotional roller coaster since it started. Problems arise, conflicts, war, and so many problems. Legalizing Gay marriage really shouldn't be the biggest problem we're worrying about. I think it should have been legalized and be done with it.

>>21 She can say its wrong but in the end, it's just an opinion. We are all entitled to our opinions. Don't let words get to you. Stick to your beliefs and your golden, but try to also understand where they're coming from and how they might feel the way they do. Their beliefs are important to them like equal rights are important to LGBT and supporters. Their beliefs don't make them bad people, it's only when people act violently and forcefully that it's wrong. It's not right for some people to force their beliefs on others, but if they want to say how they feel or what they believe in, then let them.

I'm just going to throw this out there but most of this discussion has been from a religious standpoint and I would like to show a different perspective. I give complete support that homosexuals deserve the rights that all people in society should have. However, and I don't mean to sound like a bigot, I find the thought of Gay Marriage illogical.

I myself have experimented in sexuality and I can find the physical, mental and emotional appeal in either gender. But as an option for marriage? I would go with a partner of an opposite gender not because of society and what it's rules dictate but as a human being wanting to pass on my gene pool.

The main goal of any living organism, no matter the species, is to reproduce and continue on the existence on their species. And unless I have been completely out of the loop, last I checked neither evolution nor science have developed a way for same sex couples to reproduce.

I don't mean to insult anyone's belief, and if I did I apologize, I just wanted to share a different view on this matter.

>>23 While it is true that there is no way for two gay men to reproduce, there is science out there that allow lesbian couples to, using something involving the bone marrow of one of them. Additionally, any of the marginalized sexualities are a minority group, so species survival isn't a concern.

I'm not even going to get into the "either gender" binarist thinking and why that is wrong.

In any case, love isn't logical, and even if you don't mean to be, by denying it based on "logic," you're still a bigot.

I'd hate to be that guy, but I don't go solely by logic. I do think that homosexual relationships are wrong- BUT I can accept people and their choices without supporting them. It is possible to be friends with people you have differing opinions with, and they can understand that too. By telling a christian their God is wrong or by telling someone their logic is wrong, you are no better than the people that say that your choices\love interests are wrong. We can all agree to disagree.

Dang, I love how civil everyone here is. I had a blast reading this, whereas it's a headache to read other people's posts on similar topics. Also, I personally agree with >>25 among others. They really hit the nail on the head.

>>24 To call me a 'bigot' is to say that I'm intolerant of those with different opinions or beliefs that aren't my own. And I actually enjoy talking with others who have different ideas cause that way we can discuss it and for me debating is always fun.
I have never really had an issue with homosexuals. I actually have friends who are gay and I've said to them that I don't really 'understand' it. They don't understand me either, but we're mutually okay with that.
As for love...perhaps it might be that I've never experienced what is categorized as 'Real Love', but in my life I've always taken care to look at any emotions I feel from a logical perspective. And since I have nothing else to go on but that than I will look at 'love' as a logical thing. If at some point I am proven incorrect in this thinking than I accept that.

If you want me to be entirely honest with you, you seem like you do fear them, at least a little bit. "only afraid of what gay marriage and relationships do to the country or those involved" What exactly is there to fear about that? That they will try and infiltrate the government and change the country so much that it falls apart, or other irrational things? It's only marriage, not to mention most of them (along with most heterosexuals) are perfectly sane and would prefer not to do things like taking over the world.

Another thing is that most people who are against gay marriage are also extremely homophobic. Therefore, if you say you're against it, people will assume you're against homosexuals.

You seem to also be a bit confused about genders. It doesn't really surprise me, as it seems to also be a newer thing. People often differentiate between gender and sex. Sex is your outside body and gender is your mind. While this is not an entirely accurate example, think of it as seeing yourself as masculine or feminine. Regardless of their body, some people feel like they are more masculine and some feel more feminine. Now, don't take the femininity/masculinity entirely seriously, because those are the wrong terms, and I am likely to get fried for using them here, since there are many feminine men who see themselves as men and masculine women who see themselves as women. Just take it as a general pointer.

>>27 I'm not sure which post of yours it was, but you mentioned something about not understanding why homosexuals want to marry. Marriage, or at least the wedding, is seen as something celebratory, something nice. So now imagine that a friend of yours gets something nice and worthy of celebrating, but people are denying that something to you. Most people would want that something as well.
Another reason is that marriage binds two people together. Humans like being possessive, and marriage binds them together. While they can still go and have affairs or run off, it still gives a sort of more permanent tie to the person. Divorces take time, breaking up with someone doesn't.

"only afraid of what gay marriage and relationships do to the country and to those involved."

I could see where you're coming from with every other sentence but this one. What gay marriage does to those involved... Only gay people are going to be effected by gay marriage. It's not going to tear the family apart and make them fight over their first born child.........

And I can't see how it can harm the country either. What are they going to do? Adopt all those kids that straight parents didn't want? They aren't getting abortions either. All in all, I think more gay parents would be better for the country than most straight parents are.

Gay marriage is literally just two people getting married. People seem to think it's like some government conspiracy to take over our children's brains so they won't reproduce.

I gotta agree with >>29 but yeah I see where you're coming from.
Stick with your won beliefs. Which is pretty ironic to say 'cause now I'm saying this to someone who's straight instead of someone of a different gender or sexuality. Oh how society changes~ Anyway, if they don't agree with you, fuck them. There's this senior who sits our table who's a Nazi homophobe but he's actually a pretty cool guy. I'm pansexual and we talk sometimes and we don't ever actually talk about sexuality and gender and stuff. But we're still chill with each other nonetheless. Let me just get sright to point and say just find someone who won't care about your beliefs. And frankly, I'm intrigued as to why you have this anxiety about gay marriage.

>>1 I really hope you read this–

First, it sounded like it was a preposterous concept to you, so I just want to explain that LGBTA+ people who come out of the closet really should be congratulated, yknow? Coming out is /hard/ and we really need to build up a lot of courage to do it– since we're living in a world full of homophobia and heteronormativity, we don't always know what kind of reaction we're going to get. It's scary.

Second, yes there are more than two genders. And you don't choose your gender (or your sexual orientation for that matter). It's like how I don't chose to love chocolate, I just do. We just are the way we are. Besides, think about it– why, for the love of everything good, would we choose to be marginalized, discriminated against, bullied, and invalidated? Why would we choose to have people hate us?

Anyway– about that unpopular opinion of yours?

I can't comprehend why gay relationships would make you afraid. It doesn't affect anyone who isn't in a gay relationship. What are we doing that strikes fear in you? What do you think is on the gay agenda? Poisoning the water supply? Burning the houses? Because all we really want to do is live our lives, and I don't see the issue there...
And as for gay marriage– the only way it would affect the country is by making it more slightly more accepting and equal. It'd also make a bunch of people happy, which is definitely a good thing. I'm having trouble seeing your point of view. If you could help me understand?

You say that being against gay marriage isn't being against gay people… well, you definitely aren't supporting them, either. That statement doesn't show apathy, it's more than that– it's opposition. You are against something important that LGBTA+ people want and /deserve/. That's why you'll sometimes get a negative reaction when you tell people that. You're supporting inequality. It implies that you may think you have the right to take away someone else's right to marriage. Which isn't fair at all.

Even if you don't mean to offend… you are. I understand you have no malicious intent, but that doesn't stop it from being hurtful.

I just urge you to re-think this opinion of yours. It's oppressing, you know? When I read your post it just reminded me exactly how little power the LBGTA+ community has. It just made my heart sink.

I wish I could have a legitimate conversation with you about this, honestly.

– a kid who's still stuck in the closet.