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Solipsism (32)

1 Name: Adam's Monster : 2014-04-08 05:30 ID:QcZgstyx [Del]

Does anyone believe or is interested in solipsism?
I'm interested to hear your thoughts.

2 Name: BarabiSama!!C8QPa1Mt : 2014-04-08 08:06 ID:fNg7HtlP [Del]

Seems a little egotistical to me, personally. But I don't know enough on the subject to give an honest, unbiased perspective of the philosophy itself, though I feel I can comfortably say I don't follow it myself. I do agree that yourself is the only thing that you can trust in 100%. However, I don't think that you should treat the rest of the world like a dream or look at other people only in how they relate to yourself. It's way too self-centered and leaves you biased in very possible topic and situation.

3 Name: Dmonkey : 2014-04-08 08:33 ID:RjmGYGiE [Del]

Well, I don't know much about this topic, but I don't agree with solipsism very much. There are things that are created by our mnd, that's true, but, Why will our mind create bad things? I think, if solipsism was true, as everything is created by our mind, I'd focus on creating good things. Also, we can't hear other people's thoughts (i think if all of this is created by our mind, we could understand better the people's personality and ideas), so....
Thats my opinion. Bt, however, I respect your own opininions and every theory is valid.

4 Name: Blinking!!VVr++Kk/ : 2014-04-08 09:51 ID:4ydcCVPW [Del]

I'm torn between agnosticism and solipsism. I think that it's very possible that I'm alone in my own head, but I have no concrete reasoning for or against that theory thus far.

5 Name: LoveMyAnime : 2014-04-08 10:40 ID:8bh0epnt [Del]

Whats that?

6 Name: Inuhakka !u4InuhakKA : 2014-04-08 11:08 ID:c6pc+Qco [Del]

I don't think your own mind is sure to exist.

However, aside from that point I think solipsism is true, because your mind cannot acquire information without perceiving it. Even other people's viewpoints being told to you are perceived by you, and then become your perception of their viewpoints. There's no way to take in information without it becoming your information, which means your perception is the only sure thing.

However, like >>2 said there's no reason to live your life with this viewpoint influencing your actions. While it may not be provable, it's probable that my own mind is not the only one in the universe. Living your entire life assuming you are the only important thing in the entire world is going to make you despised.

7 Name: Mr. Cross : 2014-04-08 19:05 ID:uY+21RoD [Del]

At this moment, I feel like I should join the official debate but I'll do that later. I want to clarify something first.

>>6
Part of this is incorrect. Your mind can and does acquire information without the influence of perception. The 'true' mind, a.k.a. the subconscious. That part of the mind that is almost always separate from what we call 'reality'. Perception is applied conscious mind, because we interface with it via ego. However, we do not have any control over the layers beneath that, where the truth is stored away. Yet, that part of the mind controls more than we realize. When you look at it from that perspective, perception is suddenly not as sure as it was. Granted, I understand that perception is the only thing that matters. Good, evil, right, wrong are all perception but the subconscious doesn't abide by that.

If an urge to kill surfaces from the subconscious mind to the conscious, we determine that it is wrong via perception. However, the subconscious is obviously not affected by such human notions or they wouldn't exist on a fundamental level.

8 Name: Inuhakka !u4InuhakKA : 2014-04-08 20:18 ID:c6pc+Qco [Del]

>>7 Perception is not an entirely conscious concept. Perception is the interpretation of data. The subconscious mind clearly does this, otherwise it would not function at all. The subconscious mind is still part of you, a human being. Human beings have eyes, ears, and other instruments for senses, but not all of them are the same among all humans. The subconscious mind does not use its own specialized instrument to obtain data, it uses the same eyes and ears the conscious mind uses.

Perception, then, is different for everyone. Each person's eye will be stimulated by light in a different way. Each person's nerves will be stimulated by pressure in a different way. This difference is perception, the kind of perception that is unique to everyone.

At the very least, even if the subconscious mind processed all information in the same way among all humans (very unlikely), each human receives different information from the same data (stemming from the different instruments used to gather data).

9 Name: Mr. Cross : 2014-04-08 21:19 ID:uY+21RoD [Del]

>>8
Very nice. We should be friends. Haha. Let's continue then.

At this point we can divide perception into categories; heightened perception and basic perception. Fundamentally, is it simply cognitive function. To know something, to understand it. "I perceive how to write", fancy for "I know how to write". Heightened perception can be likened to how one uses that basic understanding to make judgments. "This is wrong".

Your argument is sound. I like it a lot. There is still something you are missing, I think. I believe we can all sufficiently agree on the fact that ESP exists in various forms. I will use one of the more well known ones in my example. Empathy. Empathy itself does not make use of any of the five senses. The ability to share in and understand the feelings of others is something that occurs on a level beyond that of the typical senses. The conscious mind can process it is happening, but cannot understand it since it deals in emotion. Emotions themselves originate from the subconscious. They are not taught nor earned, merely sharpened and honed. Such as the desire I spoke of in my last post.

That said, the act of empathy occurs through subconscious channels and rises into the conscious where we understand that we are feeling something in response to something. However, we cannot perceive empathy. We cannot understand the emotions themselves, just acknowledge they exist. Information on emotions from people surely passes through to the conscious mind but we are entirely unaware of the process. It just happens. You can easily reason it, such as "I have experienced what he/she is going through" but that is essentially a catalyst. It is not the reaction itself. If you cannot grasp it with your mind, you cannot perceive it.

Thinking about it, empathy itself is a counter argument to solipsism.

-At this point, I need to stop and gather my thoughts. I confused myself. LMAO. But I will leave it because I wrote it.-

[Anyway, after all this, I figured out what I wanted to say. Perception is a very human concept. All knowledge is after all, as knowledge itself is the creation of humans. However, the mind itself, both conscious and subconscious, are not human. We perceive their existence (because something /is/ there) but we do not understand them, which fails to meet a basic criteria for perception. We did not create them, seeing as how important functions of the mind and body are born with us. So, perception applying to the mind itself is a bit strange. Applying an human concept to an alien device seems a bit egotistical, if you ask me. I guess the question is if you see something is there but don't know what it is, is that still perception?]

10 Name: Chreggome : 2014-04-08 22:10 ID:vJTNARAd [Del]

Another philosophy where mankind is on top of the food chain.
We've grown too complacent in our cozy little minds.

We are not the top.
The universe is crazy and chaotic.
Solipsism is shit. :)

11 Name: Neko-tama!EQ2c47V0Ps : 2014-04-08 22:23 ID:F4guGD7f [Del]

This idea reminds me of this short story my friend sent me once, http://www.galactanet.com/oneoff/theegg_mod.html

I don't fully agree with solipsism but sometimes I feel like I'm in a dream and that this is all in my head, almost as though I don't feel real, like one day I'll just "wake up".I don't believe that my consciousness is the only one though, but maybe the world is all lies, I don't believe too much in truth.

12 Name: Solace !o0GOqY0U0w : 2014-04-08 22:51 ID:dLURa+O7 [Del]

>>10 Yeah.

Solipsism is a classic case of human hubris.
You can't prove the universe doesn't revolve around your individual self just as you can't prove bagels don't grow wings when you aren't looking.
The lack of ability to disprove is something does not give any sort of credence towards the theory in itself. In cases like that, you're generally supposed to rely on basic common sense to make a good call.
Also, that would lean you towards thinking that your mind, or whatever is creating the universe around you, is utterly perfect. The universe in itself has no holes in lore or logic, the more you look into something the more complicated and perfect it gets. No sort of being could ever create a flawless existence, unless you're a solipsistic Christian. You'd also probably be a little more important if the universe revolved around your very being.

But you know, people follow Scientology down to the letter, so who's to say that something like this isn't valid.

13 Name: Chreggome : 2014-04-09 00:27 ID:KAGgDWKu [Del]

>>12 Muwah!

14 Name: foreversigh!wQfr6KA0vQ : 2014-04-09 02:51 ID:8kd8gHWS [Del]

This is really interesting. I'd never heard of solipsism before now but am seriously considering it now though. I'm like >>4 though and can't decide between it and agnosticism.

I think that I'm too much of an agnostic to believe it because my current perspective is that nothing is certain so even though the idea that only our mind being able to be proven to exist does appeal to me and seem to make sense it's not certain to me. I'm a contradictory agnostic though (or rather my belief is a paradox) so even though I believe that nothing is certain I also believe that it's not certain that nothing can be proven. And is it even certain that our mind exists? That probably sounds really dumb but I think that there are many laws to our existence that we don't understand and go past psychology so I'm probably sticking to agnostic over solipsism. To me they're pretty much the same thing though so it might be better for me to say I'm a solipsistic because then I don't get confused as being on the fence between christian and atheist.

15 Name: Mr. Cross : 2014-04-09 10:15 ID:uY+21RoD [Del]

>>14
Yes, the mind exists. It may not be what you think it is or called that, but it is there.

>>10 Lmao.

>>12
Perfection doesn't exist. To exist is to die. Any so-called perfect beings, cannot exist in this plane of existence nor can they interfere with it because if they do, the rule of death will be applied to them.

If solipsism was real, I would have killed the majority of you off a long time ago and taken full control of this universe I created. I've thought about this many years before now and I have reached my conclusion. It's pretty obvious really. If I'm imagining this universe, there is no fucking way I'm going to allow idiots to live in it. XD

16 Name: foreversigh!wQfr6KA0vQ : 2014-04-09 12:48 ID:8kd8gHWS [Del]

>>15 If you're imagining the universe it doesn't mean that you have control over it or that it's voluntary. Think of it like a dream but with no body to return to when you wake up.

17 Name: Mr. Cross : 2014-04-09 13:26 ID:uY+21RoD [Del]

>>16
You underestimate my control over the metaphysical. I frequently control my dreams (and very occasionally my subconscious). It requires some serious effort but can be done. If this is me we are talking about and it's my imagination, then this world has nothing to do with me. My sheer willpower and hatred for this world would have ended it a long, long time ago.

18 Name: Minus !M9lieYYnPo : 2014-04-09 15:44 ID:rdizBchM [Del]

>>15 This quote "If I'm imagining this universe, there is no fucking way I'm going to allow idiots to live in it. XD"
is something I will totally do, if solipsism would have been real.
I don't meant it to offend any of you, but I don't believe in such thing.

>>17 I've been doing that with my nightmares and eventually they stopped.

19 Name: Solace !o0GOqY0U0w : 2014-04-09 18:32 ID:kxa6eBc5 [Del]

>>15
>Backs up my argument about solipsism and human hubris by being full of themselves.

Irony.

20 Name: Mr. Cross : 2014-04-09 19:16 ID:uY+21RoD [Del]

>>19
I intended it to support you. I'm not being arrogant though. I'm being realistic yet half-joking. I /know/ these things. Just because /you/ can't understand how to control metaphysics doesn't mean it's impossible or others can't. All I do is study this sort of thing on my own. I find it extremely difficult to believe that I am the center of the universe when so many things counter that idea. If I'm crafting this imaginary universe in my head, like some uber-level dream, then what explicitly says that my mind, my willpower, my very desire itself cannot affect what /I/ am creating? I'm here aren't I? Try to control your dreams while you are having them. When you manage it, come back and see if you still believe it is arrogance.

>>18
Oh that's good. It's good to meet others with that rare trait. Most people just kinda give up or don't get it.

21 Name: Chreggome : 2014-04-09 23:55 ID:KAGgDWKu [Del]

>>20
>Just because /you/ can't understand how to control metaphysics

Quit acting special, it's not even that hard to do.
The only reason it would ever require much work is because your mind wasn't good enough, pal.

It's an ability that all humans are born with, it's how our brain works.

You're no snowflake. xD

22 Name: Inuhakka !u4InuhakKA : 2014-04-10 00:07 ID:Sn2Ly3m2 [Del]

>>21 I don't think it's that easy to control your dreams. The most difficult part is realizing you are in a dream, but that's still fairly difficult, no?

I guess the hardest part of controlling the universe would be realizing you are the most important thing in the entire universe, but many people have already realized this and they're just assholes.

Maybe the fact that assholes don't have superpowers is an argument against solipsism.


Also, still thinking about my response to >>9.

23 Name: Chreggome : 2014-04-10 00:25 ID:KAGgDWKu [Del]

>>22 I wouldn't know, I've never had a hard time with it.

I think the best argument against Solipsism is being an adult.
That and sonder.
Amazing concepts that blow middle school level shit like this out of the water.

24 Name: Mr. Cross : 2014-04-10 10:23 ID:uY+21RoD [Del]

>>21
g fucking g, a "real" arrogant person showed up. Go get 'em >>19. I don't feel like dealing with it.

>>22
It is subjective, based on the dream. Which how I know >>21 is full of shit. Realizing you are in a dream is subjective based on the person. Some dreams, the less vivid ones are as simple as willing something to happen. The deeper in the subconscious the dream is, the more vivid it is and the harder it is to manipulate. For the really powerful and long dreams, spanning across worlds with all sorts of logical and illogical events, I can't really explain how to control them. I know that it's difficult to maintain that control without waking up but as for the actual process, it's not something I can put into words right now. There are a few different types of control as well.

I had a really crazy dream set in a post-apocalyptic world with zombies and every time I would die, I would freeze the dream and repeat the last few seconds (because that's all I could manage) with the knowledge of how I died, so I wouldn't die. Sometimes I can input ideas of how I want the dream to turn out in the next few minutes and it will create some kind of new path. There are all sorts of fun things you can do. Doing it, on the other hand, isn't easy.

25 Name: RollyPolly !!VbnYl8oi : 2014-04-10 11:58 ID:o3+rSlAX [Del]

>>24 Sorry, but >>19 and >>21 are in agreement.
Although, I would agree Chreggome was being a bit presumptuous. I know many people that can't control their dreams, and I am the same way. The most control I can get is moving around freely while knowing I am in a dream, I've never been able to actually control what is going on.

26 Post deleted by user.

27 Name: Mr. Cross : 2014-04-10 13:59 ID:uY+21RoD [Del]

>>25
I wouldn't say they are in agreement. >>19 is misreading the things I'm saying and >>21 is just trying to pick a fight with me.

>>15 was a joke that >>19 took too damn seriously, trying to act like I'm some arrogant prick. Hence came my irritation. Now >>21 just wants to pick on me because he /thinks/ he's special, but has proven himself to be an absolute failure by overgeneralizing and letting his own arrogance cloud his judgment. If my >>20 would have been true arrogance, I wouldn't have bothered to mention 'others'. I do know metaphysical manipulation is real. I have quite a few friends who can do it too. Funny part is, we all agree that it is somewhat beyond our current capability to master.

I typed up this long ass post then I realized, "Why the fuck do I care?" I'm withdrawing from this debate. Have fun.

28 Name: Inuhakka !u4InuhakKA : 2014-04-10 19:34 ID:Sn2Ly3m2 [Del]

>>9 There are two forces at work here. Firstly, there is the lizard brain, the human aspect of humans. This is where the subconscious would fit in. The lizard brain is what pulls away your hand when you touch something hot, or what feels fear of the dark. It is, essentially, human. The subconscious mind is our most basic instincts. Secondly, there is the civilized brain. This is the conscious brain, what we pile acquired knowledge upon. This is the part of the mind that can reason, consider, and be taught. This is the conscious.

Basically, I don't think the mind is 'not human', I think the subconscious mind is 100%, untouched human instinct. The only non-human part of the brain would be the conscious brain, the civilized part of ourselves that we have taught over time to resist our base urges.

Moving on, you said there is certainly some form of Extra Sensory Perception, something that does not use the 5 senses. I don't like the term ESP, because it further promotes the idea that humans have a mere 5 sense. As you may know, there are well over 5 senses, including the ability to sense the relative location of our body parts, gravity, pain (which is distinctive from simple touch), balance, heat transfer, etc. If we did have a distinct ability to sense emotions, it would still be a sense. Senses are the ability to gather different types of data (ie, sight is the ability to collect visual data), so empathy, as the ability to collect emotional data, would fall under that category

However, I don't think empathy is a separate sense. Empathy is the ability to sense other people's emotions. When a human being feels an emotion, they display very distinct signs as a result. A simple example is crying when you are sad. This simple example of course is easy to spot, but there are hundreds if not thousands of smaller, subtler ways people display their emotions. We can sense these displays without using anything other than our 5 primary senses. We can see a subtle movement in the face, hear a change in tone, feel an increase in strength, perhaps even smell the release of pheromones, and all of this data accumulates into information: the subject is feeling angry.

You are correct, almost all of this happens subconsciously. People who are trained as lie detection experts or psychologists are able to consciously process this data, which is why they are so good at it. However, most people are not. I think this is where the uncertainty of empathy comes from. I don't think empathy is impossible to understand, I think it's difficult to understand because it is the result of so much data being processed. There are many, many factors that go into determining what emotion someone is feeling, and the subconscious mind processes all that cannot be processed by the conscious mind. So, I would say empathy is still based entirely on perception, just on a larger scale.


Also, you seem to be saying if we don't understand something, we aren't perceiving it. If this were true, no one in the entire world has ever perceived anything. Perception is not about understanding or truth, perception is about making information from data. Data is all of your cones and rods firing intensely, information is 'holy shit, a swordfish almost went through my head'. This perception, of near swordfish murder, is not correct in any way. A person collecting different data, maybe form very far away, might not come to the same conclusion. Perception is simply based on varying amounts of information people receive. The only reason anyone would have a different perception of a person or situation from someone else is different information.

Perception is also not a purely human concept. It applies to other living creatures, as well as non-living mechanisms. Maybe it was humans that figured out any intake of data from an environment will taint the data itself, however this is a fundamental law of the universe. You cannot observe something without changing it. This can be applied to perception as well: you cannot intake information from your surroundings without changing it.

Basically, I'm trying to say it's impossible to prove or disprove solipsism, because you cannot acquire information without changing it in your own unique way, thus making it part of you. I think we both agree solipsism itself is kind of silly, considering even if everything was in our minds, we can't control it, so there's no point in assuming it is.

29 Name: Chreggome : 2014-04-11 00:31 ID:KAGgDWKu [Del]

>>27 I'm not trying to pick a fight with you.
I disagree with how you are presenting what I consider a very real thing to me.

30 Name: Minus !M9lieYYnPo : 2014-04-11 11:05 ID:rdizBchM [Del]

Dude, I'm not trying to give you a chance to fight.
I just wrote something that amused me. But that's all.

I'm not taking any sides on this, but I don't believe in metaphysical.
Realising you are in a dream takes a lot of time. And I can just ignore the events happening in the dream. It is not a gift. It just training.

I respect those of you who believe in metaphysical, so I stopped by because >>1 was curious about our opinion.

31 Name: Chreggome : 2014-04-13 03:14 ID:2rI0SyYt [Del]

>>30 Who are you talking to?

32 Name: Anonymous : 2014-04-14 01:43 ID:ogDPhdGL [Del]

I actually had never heard of solipsism until stumbling upon this thread however its funny because I've had the idea before.
Regardless, I think solipsism is an interesting idea that almost works, however; if you can't trust that which is around you, how can you trust in your own mind? Basically, if everything around you is some mystical dream induced by god-knows what, what is to say that your very mind isn't the same. What if everything you believe, think, feel, is another piece of fantasy made by yourself.