http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/05/chile-abortion-debate_n_3551960.html

The case of a pregnant 11-year old girl who was raped in Chile by her mother's partner has set off a national debate about abortion in one of the most socially-conservative countries in Latin America.
Chileans were outraged on Friday after state TV reported that the child is 14 weeks pregnant and was raped repeatedly over two years. Police in the remote southern city of Puerto Montt arrested her mother's partner, who reportedly confessed to abusing the fifth grader. The case was brought to their attention by the pregnant child's maternal grandmother.
Doctors say the girl's life and that of the fetus are at high risk. But in Chile, ending the pregnancy is not an option.
Chile allowed abortions for medical reasons until they were outlawed in 1973 by Gen. Augusto Pinochet's dictatorship. The current government of conservative President Sebastian Pinera has opposed any loosening of the prohibition.

Since I've been hearing news about the abortion laws in America, I thought I'd put this out. I'd like to know, if anyone here is indeed against abortion, does this change your opinion?

i'm against abortion I think thay should fine a way to save her and the baby.

I'm pro-abortion, it's her decision and it's not fair for her to experience child birth like that. I believe that that decision should be in the hands of the girl; it's her choice and an extremely hard one.

>>2 Don't try and hide, BFN; We can still tell it's you.

I'm pro-choice and this is exactly why. Situations require abortions, situations like this and many others. Giving a woman the right to abortions solves so many of these kind of issues. Not only that but if abortion is illegal, people will still do it, they just wont do it safely.

>>3 it's her decision? she is too yung to make such a decision! she's just a baby herself!

>>4 "Giving a woman the right to abortions solves so many of these kind of issues" that's not always how it is! woman now a days are just getting abortions just to get rid of a baby that thay don't want. and that's not right!

>>6 Okay then BFN, what is your solution to this case?

>>2 That's the problem - bodies that young aren't suitable to give birth the way a grown woman's is. She is still developing physically and mentally, and being pregnant can take a significant toll on grown women, so imagine what it would be like for a girl who is just entering adolescence. Doctors have said that it is negatively effecting both her and the baby's health. There is a possibility they will both die.
I'm no expert, but the child could become malformed because she's so young. Not sure though, so don't hold me to it.
Under better circumstances, yes, maybe she could and would want to save the baby. But this isn't better circumstances - this could kill them both.

>>5 Woah there, slow down. Eleven isn't all that young, and I'm sure she had been informed of the risks. She also has a family to help her make that decision.
(I was eleven only a few years ago, and by then I knew I wouldn't want a child conceived through rape. Or any other means, at that time.)
>>4 I agree. Illegal abortions are incredibly dangerous and need to be avoided at all costs.
>>6 There are reasons people don't want to have a baby. Some women have been ditched by their partners or do not have enough funds to raise and school a child. My mother barely has enough to feed me twice a day, and we receive disability welfare payments from the government!
And then there's rape - I know a pro-life woman who was raped, and even she wanted to get rid of the baby. Luckily, she didn't conceive.
Sometimes people just aren't ready for children, like this girl, but end up with a baby against their will anyway. The same way a woman has the right to marry a person of her choosing, a woman has the right to choose if she wants a child with said person.

I'm against abortion, but only for the stupid people out there who have unprotected sex and want to get rid of their "mistake." Otherwise I think abortion should only be legal for rape cases and if the baby threatens the mother's life.

i agree with ritsucka im agianst it if you are going to wipe a 'mistake' but i theres nothing else you can do about it then theres no other choice

I am pro-abortion. I don't think anyone should have the right to force people who don't want children to have them. It's fair neither to them nor to the children, who deserve to be loved and wanted by their parents. Being a parent is a great responsibility, it shouldn't be taken lightly and it should be done willingly, with intent to always put the child first,whatever that may entail. Not to mention the fact that some people are really not capable of being parents and end up completely ruining their child's life.

I'm pro-abortion, its not like we have a right to decide something for another person, its their decision and they're doing it because they most likely know the costs or consequences of having a child and aren't ready for that yet

I'm seeing people write here that they are "pro-abortion", I would like to clarify something. I am not pro-abortion, I am pro-choice. There is a difference. I do not want mothers to abort their babies, I think that it is wrong and should never be done. However, I believe that it should be the mother's choice. She should be able to decide what is best for her and the baby. Sometimes that choice is not always clear. In this case, I believe it is best for her to abort the pregnancy. This child is obviously not ready to be a mother and her life is in danger. It is wrong to prevent her from doing something that will save her life, especially when it appears the baby would die even if it was brought to term. For goodness sake, let them save the little girl's life.

>>13 Thankyou for saying that, I wanted to but I just didn't quite know how to phrase it. Pro-abortion just makes you sound like you love killing unborn babies.

This is a subject fragile, But I'm against abortion. she got pregnant for wanting or not she should take responsibility

>>16 She can't take responsibility if she's dead.

Hold on, i'm out of popcorn.

Pro-choice, because I'm a guy and guys can't control what a woman does with her body.

>>18 You just made my day.
And you're right, because I have turned this into the ultimate shitstorm.
>>19 I wish every man said that. Thank you for being a respectful human being :)

^

Wow poor girl. I think in a case of life threating and/or rape abortion should be legal, but as a choice by the mother only in those cases. The girl is 11 and that must be scary for her!!

>>19 baby killer!

>>13 "I am not pro-abortion, I am pro-choice. There is a difference" what's the fucking difference? your still saying that you are for murdering a innocent child! "She should be able to decide what is best for her and the baby." so killing the baby is what's best for it? I can tell that you really hate baby's hell if you had it your way you would kill all the baby! your nothing but a murderous baby killer and I hope you burn in hell.

>>24 Jesus fucking christ do you even understand what goes on during an embryo's development? Or are you just that fucking stupid you didn't even research before calling someone a murderer?
Do you fucking realize how hard it is for rape victims to raise the child of someone who abused them? Would you like to be in the place of this girl and just wait to die as that child sucks the life out of you?
I'll see you in hell then, you piece of shit.

>>25 OOhh SNAP!
That one was good

>>25 Ha, Blinking, you make my day better.

>>24 The baby will probably be dead either way. This way they at least save one life. Besides, is it really responsible to give birth to a child who will have a horrible life because the mother cannot raise it correctly? Even if you do give up the child for adoption, many children don't get adopted. They live horrible lives. Those who go into foster care are often abused. It isn't fair to a child to bring them into that sort of world.

I am getting kind of sick of males saying "I'm pro choice because we shouldn't tell girls how to control their body". I am a male, I am pro choice, but it isn't for that reason. If somebody is going to do something incredibly stupid and irresponsible to their body, it should be stopped. You should at least have a say. It isn't being wise or kind to say that to females, it's just having a weak will. Luckily, in a lot of cases (such as this one) abortion is not stupid or irresponsible . That's why I believe it should be choice with restrictions; if we make abortions illegal, they aren't going to stop, they are just going to become dangerous and shady. You do want restrictions however to stop some people not bothering to use condoms or the pill because they can just get rid of it. Some people must accept responsibility for their actions.

>>24 You need to stop shaming the human race with your existence. It's like saying you should pay the same price for a chicken nugget as for the weird, gloopy, cream like stuff it is before it is cooked. The gloopy cream like stuff is not a chicken nugget. It is simply what will one day turn into the chicken nugget. If we follow your logic, every time you masturbate you are potentially killing a baby. If you consider those women baby killers, then consider about 90% of the male population baby killers as well. Excuse my weird fucking analogy but It's the first thing that came to mind.
P.S. You suck and nobody likes you here. Most likely you have weird christian friends that hang out with out to thin you're superior and holy but trust me, you're not. You're just a close minded idiot.

Who could possibly be more innocent than an unborn baby?! Yet, our society has become so wicked that it condones the slaying of 1.5 million innocent children every year. The Bible says that God HATES people who do this.

(Luke 2:12, 16). In God eyes, an unborn babe and a newborn babe are the same. They are both living human beings!

Proverbs 6:16-17 says that God HATES those who shed innocent blood! Deuteronomy 27:25 says, "Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person. And all the people shall say, Amen." God created man to be the highest form of life on earth (Gen. 1:26-28). Human life is very precious to God. In fact, it is so precious that God Himself instituted the Death Penalty for anyone who takes the life of another (Exo. 21:12; Num. 35). God places great value on human life! However, abortion promotes the message that life is NOT so valuable, and that man can do as he pleases with it. How long will it be before our nation decides that the killing of elderly people and sick people is justifiable? Why stop there? How long will it be before it becomes lawful to kill Bible believers who refuse to conform to the world system? It won't be as long as you may think (Rev. 13:16-18; Rev. 20:4). Abortion devalues human life, and it pushes our nation a step closer to that wicked day when it becomes lawful to murder innocent people. To have an abortion is to take matters into your own hands which the Bible labels as SIN. A desperate woman says, "I can't afford to have a child. I'm not ready for this." You don't need an abortion, for such will only INCREASE your troubles. The devil has you thinking that abortion is the answer, that it will take care of everything, and you're very close to giving in to his subtle temptation. If you do, you'll regret it forever, and God will hold you accountable!

>>30 no im a girl

>>31 Not everyone believes what you do. Quoting from the Bible isn't credible as many people do not believe it. I'm not saying it is wrong either, I'm a Christian myself, but I do not condone making others follow it.

Abortion is a terrible thing that I would never consider, but it is the woman's choice. I will not ever make that decision for her. It is the woman's decision to do as she wishes with her body. If she believes abortions are within her morale standards and they are legal, she has every right to do it. If you do not believe in abortions, simply do not have one.

>>32 If she believes abortion is the right thing then god will not show his mercy! there is a special place in hell just for murders! and all people who think thay can get away with it!

>>28 Wow that chicken nugget logic was really clever; kudos to you!
>>29 Hey. Hey you. Fuck you. Not everyone believes in God, and nor do they care if they're being 'tempted by the devil' or whatever that shit is.
Stop trying to shove your beliefs down our throats, because if human life really IS valuable, then that little girl shouldn't have to die. Grow up and stick to your own ideals before you try to make us.

Since we're all stating why we're pro-choice or not, I'm a woman and even if I weren't asexual, NO-ONE is going to make me have a child when I don't fucking feel like it. Having respect for human life means having respect for me and my choices. Even if you do use a condom, sometimes it breaks. It's just something that happens, and I will NOT suffer nor make a child suffer because of a fucking manufacturing error or whatever caused it to break. And no-one can fucking make me.
Just so you know, I don't like the idea of killing unborn children either but sometimes you just gotta suck it up and do what's best for yourself, the child, and/or your partner. And yeah, sometimes it is best.

>>33 Are you kidding me.

>>33 If you follow God's word so highly, why do you not capitalize his name? When enforcing His teachings, show some damn respect. Also, many people do not believe in our God. The Bible means nothing to them. Stop thinking everyone has to absolutely follow it. And since you seem so keen on following it, you better just start killing every non-believer and see how that goes. Deuteronomy 17:12 look it up.

>>34 This
I'm pro-choice, because it's up to the mother to decide. As Solace said in >>28, even if you ban abortion, it'll still happen, so slam so restrictions on the practice and be done with it.

Guys, BFN has started quoting the bible! They are turning more and more like GHF every day.

I just had to do this debate in school before summer started! I am pro-choice, and this is just my opinion, so please don't yell at me. I think everyone has a right to do as they please with their body. I'm a very sick person and the medication I'm on would not allow me to carry said baby to term, and even if I could, the baby would be born with out a brain or some other vital part of its body. I couldn't carry it knowing that it was going to die anyway.

Also, as I've read through this, I haven't seen anything about RU486. Basically, it's a drug that causes painless miscarriages. >>29 When you posted that poster thing, that may or may not be true because of that RU486. It's a fairly easy drug to get your hands on and when they do get their hands on it, we don't know if they take it or not, so technically, if they're recording how much abortion procedures they sell, then they can't properly record them because of RU486 and its ease to get, so the number could be less than that or more than that.

Also, women used to use wire hangers to pull the baby out and other "at-home abortions" which are dangerous. Some women would push themselves down the stairs and say they fell while hoping the baby was gone. That's why I think that we need abortion clinics and that a woman should be able to do what she wishes to do with her body.

>>39 Ah, I've heard of that drug. I'll do some research on it later; you've intrigued me.
And the mere idea of someone pulling a child out of their vagina with wire hangers is utterly terrifying.

I actually have a condition that makes me unable to ever have my own child, so if I pregnant the baby would die quickly. I am pro choice because some people have medical issues that prevent them from having children. Now, the seventeen year old slut who fooled around with six guys probably doesn't deserve an abortion cause its her fault she got pregnant, but a sixteen year old girl who was raped? Give the little lady a break.

>>41 Amen.

I think the choice should always be out there. But after the unborn child reaches a certain age, particularly when it develops enough for it to actually be considered a baby, then it should be considered for adoption instead of abortion.

bump

sadf

asdf

asdf

^

>>43 Exactly. I saw a post on Tumblr not too long ago where some ignorant person was trying to argue that a fetus at 12 weeks looks like a miniature baby. A 12 week old fetus looks more like a melted gummy bear than a baby, and can't survive on its own. Until the fetus is no longer a fetus and can function outside the womb, the fetus is part of the woman's body. No matter what people argue, that living thing is no more separate from the woman's body than her heart or stomach. It's dependent completely on her, so what she does with it is her business.

I mean, women have enough to deal with without misogynists who think because they impregnated a woman that they have a right to say what happens to her and self-righteous bible thumpers trying to control their reproductive parts.

>>49 Thank you for that second paragraph. I completely agree.

bump

>>49 Thank you.

I will argue that just because a girl has slept around, doesn't mean she shouldn't be able to get an abortion. It's not relevant to this specific case, but I have seen some comments on it. A girl who is considered a "slut" doesn't necessarily have more means to take care of a child than any other young mother. Besides, what constitutes being a "slut" anyway? Did she sleep with her boyfriend? Break up with him and have a one night stand? Sleep with three guys? Six? What if she used protection every time and just got unlucky? Why should we dictate what she can or can't do with her body? So what if a girl likes to have sex, does that mean that we can dictate what happens to her body after she has it? Then again, if I keep going on like this I'm going to start a whole new argument.

>>52 *praises you for all eternity*
I guess it's a given if they don't use protection, but like you said, sometimes people are just unlucky.
And let's not even start on the whole 'what classifies someone as a slut' thing. Men who sleep around can't get pregnant so it's different for them. Either way, they both enjoy sex and should be able to have it as they wish IMO. Without stupid consequences.

Bump.

>>52 I disagree. If a girl has slept around then you shouldn't be able to get an abortion, they knew the risks already unlucky or not. >>54 Blinking, you're really awesome!

>>55 However, would you want said girl to raise a child?

>>53 I'm just saying that if we're going to start saying "sluts shouldn't be able to get abortions", like I've seen in earlier posts, we should think about our definition of slut. I don't want to get into that debate with anyone on this site. That would just frustrate me.

>>55 No one says anything if a guy sleeps around. Plus, what if said girl is on birth control or uses condoms every time and just gets unlucky? She was doing everything right, we shouldn't decide that she doesn't get the same rights as another girl.

>>56 This. Do you really want an idiot who got pregnant to have a child? You may think that using abortion to make it go away is wrong, but it would be cruel to not allow it.

>>56 >>57 But adoption is exactly for those reasons, right?

>>58 There are more children waiting around in foster care to be adopted (at least in the US) than there are people who want to adopt. There's just too many of them, and legal abortions will cut down on a lot of unwanted children floating around a flawed system through no fault of their own.

This doesn't apply directly to you, so I'll put it in quotes, since I feel it needs to be said: "If you want the child to be born so bad, then YOU adopt it and raise it. Are you willing to do that? If not, you have no right to tell someone to put an unwanted child up for adoption just because you think it should live for the sake of living."

>>59 Thanks for explaining it more and clearing it up for me.

>>60 No problem. There's a lot of ignorance floating around regarding this topic because either the education doesn't exist or the education is undone by "well-meaning" people.

>>55 Aw, thank you! You're awesome too :)
>>59 >>61 Yeah, if more people understood the process of both pregnancy and abortion and were aware of the statistics concerning adoption and birth issues, we probably wouldn't have as many issues with abortion.

I'd like to put it out there that we have a thread on Main for debating adoption. Seems kind of weird to be debating it on a News thread.

>>64 abortion*

derp.

>>64 I guess we just got on the topic here and kinda forgot that Main existed.

>>65 I just read your edit as adortion. I think I need some sleep.

Bump to cover

Taking into consideration that this is a case of rape where the child will not survive unless she is given the option of having an abortion, it would be highly advisable to save the child, since the fetus is likely to die regardless of outcome.

>>29 Please get out of here. Nobody is going to listen to you as the Bible is not a 100% credible source as we don't even know if half of what occurred in it is true. I'm sorry if this offends you, but considering that you're going to bring God into this, isn't it un-Christlike of you to not want to save a child's life no matter what the outcome? I'm fairly certain that Jesus, God, or whatever you believe in would want to pick the option with the least amount of deaths.

Bump

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Actually, this kind of debate is one if my favorites, because it alot to play, as a woman, its pretty difficult to know whats going to happen to that baby, actually i have think too much "What should i do if...?
1.- ... if i got pregnant by force (rape)?
If i know i am not capable to see that baby as mine, I can give him in adoption. If i im capable but i can not give him a good future, i prefer to give him in adoption and live well than live with me but a hard life, its just care about a life, not a toy,(I think its acceptable because i would want to continue with my life and grow as a person for someday have a family and give them hat they deserve.

2.-...if i got pregnant because i decided to not control my hormones?
If its my fault, i HAVE to take the responsibility because is my body and i have to face it, Simple...you started it...you should finish well!

In cases like health, i honestly will play hard thath kinf of role.

If the baby has to born and he's in good health but me not, i honestly say that i prefer dying giving someone the chance to love at least what i lived.
If both the mother and the baby are in bad conditions, I would like to make me and that baby fight till the last moment, because like there are possibilities for him to die, there are still chances for him to live, i have in my family, cases that were supposed to die at months...and now she recently celebrate her 15th birthday. Life is wonderful and the human body too. Other case that died at 10 years old because she couldn't fight more, but was very thankful to her family for supporting.....the time is not important, we should fight for them to enjoy it as much as possible

For the ones who are religious( i dont say it with bad intentions, im religious too but i dont take it too seriously ) you should take out the bible, God, Jesus, or in who you believe, because they are the ones in who you may trust, but this is about humans, is our problem, God for me, its my inspiration and a little bit of force in my spirit, but thats all, he is not going to come down and say: You'll quit in the hell if you...!!(point of view) We are all his sons, and he will always take care of us wherever he is, but the actions are taken by us.
Anyway, as much of people says and i think in that way too, its about each person, about principles, hope much people think ot this way, getting pregnant is not a game, its a risk, and just people conscious people can play that role, because this is a life, a new creature that has to live the better of this world.

I personally wait to have babies after getting marriage, and with my life done.

Bumpitup for obvious reasons.

My phone is too slow for this anon. Avengers assemble! Please!

Bump because I dont know what else I can do.

Anybody help.

Abandon news thread. Email admin, all is lost, tell my family I love them.

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You're a hero hatash, thankyou.

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Up

I said up!

Bump, to promote the discussion of actual news.

That's horrible! Just a 11 yr old girl has to face this sort of situation. Whether or not the child should be given abortion should be the young girl's choice, she has a right to say yes or no. No one can decide for her, and I am so glad that rapist criminal was arrested for good. Who knows how many others he would've done that to if he wasn't arrested? I've seen on the news similar to these sorts of cases happening every day and I can do nothing but pray that all these criminals, get arrested and disappear for good, be sentenced in jail and never commit crime again.

I believe Abortion is wrong ,but if people want to make that wrong choice ,then they should be allowed to.

Bump.

I am pro choice because of situations like this. Unless it was medically necessary, I wouldn't have an abortion but that doesn't mean anyone else shouldn't have one. There are many reasons behind getting an abortion and we shouldn't block what could be a life saving procedure for some.

Has it been mentioned at all in this thread that the 12 year old apparently wants to go through with giving birth? I get that she might die from it, and she is a child, but it's a bit silly to be throwing around the phrase "pro-choice" without considering her decision in the first place.

>>86 ""Wants to go through with giving birth"". Either she doesn't understand the consequences, she feels the need to due to pressure or people are forcing her to do so.

At least that's what I reckon it heavily sounds like.

>>87 I suspected the same thing, but the fact stands that whether she's being pressured or not, she made a decision. As someone else put it, it would be even more traumatizing to force her into an abortion if she's been convinced that the baby is hers to keep.

Personally I think abortion is wrong. I agree that sometimes an abortion is the only choice someone has. Excluding life or death situations that fetus could have a life, and no matter what anyone thinks it's still human. To put it simply abortion is murder. Having an abortion simply because you don't want the child is wrong if you don't want the child give it up for adoption. I can't understand how someone feels when the say they want an abortion and I'm not saying that they are evil. I read about a woman that became pregnant, she didn't want the baby so she decided to have an abortion. When she gave birth to the child the baby was still alive and it was given up for adoption. That child now has a happy life. Now every time someone wants to have an abortion think of that child, she want's live and she's so grateful that she is alive. In conclusion Unless completely necessary abortion is wrong.

There is actually a discussion on abortion on the main board, Jblue. I feel your comment would have fit there more than here, because as you said, this news topic specifically is the very exception to your personal opinion.

>>88 Is it really her choice, then? The choice was made for her. Anyway, I think in this case it's not really pro-choice. When it gets to something like this it's more, pro-preserving the health and well being of a young girl.

I think that if a woman's life is in danger, then she should get to make the choice of rather to get an abortion or not. However, I completely disagree with women who kill their babies just because they don't want a child.

>>2 they would traumatize a little girl. I think anyone shuld be able to get an abortion no matter what. even if it disagrees with SOME peoples religion. if you disagree with abortion then don't get one. its your body you shuld be able to do whatever you want with it. the "baby" isn't even a baby its a fetus an egg. like a chicken egg and we eat chicken eggs.

What's bump?
I think, like other people, that she should have the choice whether to have an abortion or not. She was raped, not being stupid and having unprotected sex.

>>93 Even if it's not technically a living being at the time, it has the potential to become one. If it wasn't aborted then it would grow to be a normal human baby. Taking away that potential is the same as murder.
I am a grown human being right now, but if I had been aborted as a fetus I never would have had the chance to grow up. How is that any better than if I had been killed as a baby?
It's not about religion, it's about just plain right and wrong.

>>95 Let's say you were in this fetus' situation.

If you had been aborted as a fetus, your mother could have grown to be older and have children at an age where it's healthy for her. She could be old enough to have a husband, job, support, and money to take care of these new children.

If you hadn't been aborted as a fetus, your mother would have died, or at the very least had a high chance of becoming very injured by it.

Let's say she didn't live. You get to be taken care of by your grandmother, who might blame you for her death and treat you like shit for it. At the very least, someone out there will blame you more than the rapist. You will have to face that guilt when you're old enough to understand it that your birth killed your mother. That your life took away your mother's life and all of the lives of the children she could have had when she was a proper age.

Let's say she lived, but was unable to bear children due to the injuries sustained by the birth. As a child, she grows up with you like your sister, sometimes acting as your mother until she's old enough to take you on her own. She is a single mother having trouble taking care of everything on her own, nevermind you. The men who want her don't want you. A while passes, finally she finds a man who will marry her despite her child and past experiences. He wants to have another child with her. Well, now he can't. Your life has taken away the lives of every child that she could have given birth to.

Now, all that is being a little dramatic, but I think you see my point. As for you say it is simply wrong to not have what could be a child, let me say this: if abortion should be illegal, then pulling out, condoms, birth control, tma pill, and getting your tubes tied should ALL be illegal. By pulling out, your wasting what could have been made to make a new being. By wearing a condom or taking birth control, you're stopping what could be a child from being born. By taking The Morning After pill, you might as well be having a miniature abortion by cleaning your system; what if there had been a fertilized egg there!? You'd be a murderer! You just took the life of what had the potential to be a child! By tying your tubes up, you're refusing to bring forth life into this world, which is wrong, because all of those eggs have the potential to be children and you're practically killing them by stopping them from being fertilized! Oh, and being sterile and still having sex must be even worse. You'd be an abomination of a human if you'd be willing to waste the other gender on yourself when they could go have sex with someone who could make them have a child!

I don't know your gender, but I don't think you fully understand the responsibilities that come with pregnancy and having a child. Being pregnant is hard work. It's not easy peasy nine months of, "Hey look I feel fat and-- Whoop baby just popped out, I feel great now!" You have to watch everything you do. Everything you eat. Every movement you make. You can kill your baby just be falling over. You can mentally retard your baby just by having too much to drink or by not eating enough throughout your pregnancy. Those that have the morning sickness get the pleasure of puking their guts out multiple times a day. Most pregnant women can't handle working; if they were raped or if they're single mothers without family, how the fuck do you think they're going to support themselves? Why should they have to suffer through pain and poverty when they're not ready to have a child at this point in their lives, just to give them up to an overpopulated adoption system where in the US less than a quarter of the children actually go to adoptive families before being old enough to get jobs and take care of themselves?Why should the child have to suffer?

If you're religious or spiritual, then you can trust that their soul will be going into the next child that woman has. If you're not, then you should at least be able to open your eyes and look at the thousands of children who need homes already and think, for the sake of those who are already born, we shouldn't be popping out children just to make ourselves feel less guilty, just to put them into that system and take away families from children who would have needed them more.

But seriously, guys.
We have a thread to debate abortion on Main already.

>>96 I don't think that having a surgery to prevent yourself from being able to get pregnant is wrong. There is no child to begin with, you aren't harming anything. With abortion that life has already begun, and your ending it before it has the chance to be born.

Yes, having an unwanted baby can lead to the child having a miserable life. But how is it your right to make that decision for the child? It really isn't very different from killing a 3 year old because you decided it's life sucked and it shouldn't be forced to keep going through that.

I understand that pregnancy is very difficult to go through (though I've never gone through it myself). But aborting your child because you don't want to suffer through pregnancy is incredibly selfish.

Although this should be put on the Abortion Thread, I am in fact responding to Shinigami and it would just look weird to put it anywhere but here.

>>98 Once again you are making the common misconception that aborting a baby is literally killing a baby. If aborting a baby is killing it, so is masturbation, so is using a condom, so is taking the pill. Or is it worse because they look slightly more humanoid? Don't you understand? Abortion is only recommended during (preferably early in) the first trimester. Babies have not even developed conscious thought or most cranial functions by that age, they are stuck in the purgatory between sperm and baby, that is like giving up the chance of a child, not giving up a child. But according to you, as long as you never see that child, it's alright. Out of sight out of mind, I guess.

And what you are saying is you would rather a child go through a miserable life, simply because you don't want to waste one. It's like eating a raw mince, about to be used to make a hotdog, that has been dropped and stood on simply because you don't want to waste meat.

>>98 No, there is a child to being with going by your logic. Think about those hundred of eggs that will never get fertilized. They all had the chance to become humans, but they were trapped before they could be born, denied the right to grow into babies because one selfish mother decided she didn't want to get pregnant.

Aborting a child because you're not ready to go through pregnancy isn't selfish at all. It's no more selfish than refusing to have unprotected sex before your period comes. Every time you have your period, an egg is peeled apart and dies, blatantly denied a chance to be born into a human. Every one of those eggs could have been a child. They're no different than an egg that is fertilized. They're all in the womb. They have no distinct shape. They can't think. They can't feel. Just because one has a second set of genetics in it doesn't make it better than the other. They all could be human, but they're not human yet.

If killing one is bad, then so is killing the other.

It's not that your not seeing that child, it's that the child doesn't even exist, it hasn't even begun to exist.
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on rather it's worse or not. But I will admit that you both have good points.

>>99 And what I was saying was that the parents have no right to make that decision for the child. I think most children would appreciate the chance to live. And just because a child has a miserable childhood doesn't mean it can't find happiness later in life. There are many people who have had terrible childhoods but managed to get through it and live much happier lives.

And I want to ask you something. Can you really say that you think sex-selective abortion should be legal? That people should have the right to get rid of a child just because they don't want it to be a certain gender?

>>101 I think that a person's reason for abortion should be private. So long as it is within the first trimester of pregnancy, it's none of anyone's business why they do it, because the second we start declaring minute exceptions based on our personal morals in response to their reasoning, we destroy any sensible legal argument about it.

And why are you so afraid of directly responding to anything that I say?

>>102*

>>103 I will admit that one of my main reasons for being against abortion is my religion. To a non-Christian, my arguments simply won't mean as much. That's why I said we will have to agree to disagree.

What do you mean? I thought I was responding to you, and Solace.

>>105 I brought up several points that you didn't respond to. You were just restating your previous argument instead of really trying to debate the ones at hand :l

But I guess that's alright, because this discussion should be in the abortion debate thread on Main anyway.

I'm sorry. I did pay attention to what you were saying, but I'm really bad at getting my thoughts across through typing. Sometimes it's better not to respond at all than to just end up making an awkward reply that doesn't really get your point across.

same here shinigami.
I am horrid getting my point across through typing.

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Sleepology you can say no go away all you want but im not going anywhere I have every right to come on this site as you do.

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>>114
Stop spamming that same post on every topic Sleep posts in. No one cares about it, but we do care if you keep posting that on every topic. you've a right to post, but you don't have a right to spam the same message. Understood?

So if you keep doing it I WILL REPORT you to Reltair and request for a ban.

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