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Unrest in Egypt, Possible Coup? (27)

1 Name: anubis!AnUBiS6/LQ : 2013-07-03 12:52 ID:E/ZraaL5 [Del]

The military has drawn up a road map for suspending parliament, naming civilian council.

CAIRO — President Mohammed Morsi's national security adviser said Wednesday that a "coup" was underway after the president again refused to heed demands by the military to resign.

Morsi called on the army not to "take sides" in the growing clash between rival political groups.

The Associated Press quoted unidentified Egyptian officials as saying a travel ban had been issued for Morsi, the Muslim Brotherhood chief and its deputy chief.

Gehad Al-Haddad, a spokesman for the Muslim Brotherhood, tells CNN that communications between top leaders has been disrupted and he does not know the whereabouts of the president.

NBC correspondent Richard Engel quoted leaders of the Muslim Brotherhood as saying tanks were on the move outside Cairo and that some members of the group had been arrested.

Al Ahram Arabic reported that troops were being deployed to separate the pro-Morsi protesters at Rabaa Al-Adawiya Mosque and the anti-Morsi demonstrators in front of the headquarters of the Ittihadiya presidential guard.

The president's national security adviser, Essam El-Haddad, called the unfolding events "a military coup" in a post on his official Facebook page in English.

"As I write these lines I am fully aware that these may be the last lines I get to post on this page," he wrote. "For the sake of Egypt and for historical accuracy, let's call what is happening by its real name: Military coup."

"Hundreds of thousands of them have gathered in support of democracy and the Presidency. And they will not leave in the face of this attack," Haddad added. "To move them, there will have to be violence. It will either come from the army, the police, or the hired mercenaries. Either way there will be considerable bloodshed."

Morsi's defiance came as the army chief of staff met with opposition figures and religious leaders to discuss its "road map" for dramatic political reform.

Morsi called instead for the formation of an interim coalition government, led by a prime minister approved by the major political parties.

In the last-minute statement before an afternoon deadline imposed by the military, Morsi again rejected army intervention, saying abiding by his electoral legitimacy was the only way to prevent violence. He criticized the military for "taking only one side."

"One mistake that cannot be accepted, and I say this as president of all Egyptians, is to take sides," he said in the statement issued by his office. "Justice dictates that the voice of the masses from all squares should be heard."

The military on Monday had called on Morsi to yield to the mass protests or step aside to defuse the political deadlock that had sent millions of protesters into the street.

As the deadline approached, crowds swelled Cairo's Tahrir Square where, according to the state news agency MENA, police were handing out juice and water to anti-Morsi protesters.

State media reported that the "road map" would include a new interim leadership, installed by the military, and a suspension of the Islamist-backed constitution and the Islamist-dominated parliament.

The BBC reported that the army asked all but essential staff to leave the state TV building ahead of the deadline, which expired around 4:30 p.m. local time (10:30 a.m. ET.).

At least 39 people have died since the protests began on Sunday. Many of the latest deaths occurred after gunfire erupted outside Cairo University in Giza, where pro-Morsi demonstrators gathered to show support for the president, who comes from the 85-year-old Muslim Brotherhood, the Associated Press reported.

The meeting between opposition groups and army chief Gen. Abdel Fattah al-Sisi was announced by opposition spokesman Khaled Dwoud in a live telephone interview with state television.

It included Mohamed ElBaradei, Egypt's leading democracy advocate, who represents the opposition National Salvation Front coalition and the youth groups leading anti-Morsi protesters. Also in attendance to discuss the proposed political "road map" were Sheik Ahmed el-Tayeb, grand imam of Al-Azhar mosque, and Pope Tawadros II, patriarch of Egypt's Coptic Christian minority.

Freedom and Justice party members say they refused an invitation to take part in the meeting.

Mohamed Abou El Ghar, president of the Egyptian Social Democratic party, tells USA TODAY that the opposition is demanding that Morsi must go, and that there should be a "civilian, temporary, honorary president, preferably from the higher constitutional court and a civilian prime minister with a small cabinet to run the country in the coming period."

"The military and the police should only guard the borders and the security inside the country," he said. "So, it should be clear in the minds of the West that this is not a coup. This is not a military coup."

Moving forward, he added, the opposition does not want to isolate the Muslim Brotherhood. "We want the Muslim Brothers to share in the future elections and the future parliament," he said.

As the deadline loomed, Morsi showed little interest in compromise, however, going on national TV Tuesday night to reject calls for his ouster.

A spokesman for Morsi, Ayman Ali, told Reuters that that president believes it is better "to die standing like a tree" than turn back history.

"It is better for a president, who would otherwise be returning Egypt to the days of dictatorship, from which God and the will of the people has saved us, to die standing like a tree," Ali tells the news agency."Rather than be condemned by history and future generations for throwing away the hopes of Egyptians for establishing a democratic life."

In an emotional 46-minute speech, Morsi warned the military against removing him, saying such action will "backfire on its perpetrators."

Morsi, who took office almost exactly one year ago, pledged to protect his "constitutional legitimacy" with his life.

He accused loyalists of his ousted autocratic predecessor Hosni Mubarak of exploiting the wave of protests to topple his regime and thwart democracy.

"There is no substitute for legitimacy," said Morsi, who at times angrily raised his voice, thrust his fist in the air and pounded the podium. He warned that electoral and constitutional legitimacy "is the only guarantee against violence."

Morsi said he is prepared to sacrifice his blood for the sake of the homeland, and he accused former regime loyalists of battling democracy.

Although Morsi has only been in office a year, his opponents have grown increasingly angry over a deteriorating economic and political situation, as well as what they see as attempts by the Brotherhood to monopolize power.

As the crisis continued, there has been no official protection for protesters, and police even failed to intervene when Cairo's Muslim Brotherhood headquarters was attacked then ransacked this week.

Some estimates put the total number of people killed in clashes nationwide over the past several days at more than 40.

Violence also permeates Tahrir Square, where 91 women have been sexually assaulted and in some cases raped over the past four days, Human Rights Watch said. One woman needed surgery after she was raped with a "sharp object," volunteers working to prevent sexual assault told the human rights group. Others were beaten with sticks, metal chains and chairs. In some cases, they were assaulted for up to 45 minutes.

Anti-Morsi protesters are largely hoping the military will interfere to resolve the current crisis — a shift from when many sought to push the establishment aside and make way for a democratic state and civilian rule after generals governed the country for more than 16 months in the nation's post-revolution period.

But in locations across Cairo on Tuesday night, Morsi supporters demanded that Morsi remain in his post as the county is no closer to mending deep political divisions.

Douglas Stanglin reported from McLean, Va.

Link: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/07/03/egypt-morsi-protests-army-deadline/2485355/

2 Name: anubis!AnUBiS6/LQ : 2013-07-03 12:57 ID:E/ZraaL5 [Del]

Tl;dr

Egypt has been having trouble for years, and opponents of the current president, Mohammed Morsi, are rioting again. They have issues with the current state of the economy and political problems. Morsi's opponents are saying his rule is illegitimate and are calling for his resignation. Morsi is calling it a military coup.

There are currently at least 39 confirmed deaths but some estimates have more than 40. There have been beatings, sexual assaults, and rapes.

What are your thoughts?

3 Name: Solace !o0GOqY0U0w : 2013-07-03 13:09 ID:Vp2k0ipI [Del]

Oh god, I thought after the President that made himself the richest man in the world by draining their treasury was gone, they could only get better... I was so, so wrong. I guess countries like that don't magically heal with a sprinkle of democracy and a touch of fairy dust; they need either a long, sustained, functional government or a radical revolution, Egypt so far has gotten none of them.

I thought the Muslim Brotherhood might have what it takes, pre-election they showed some real promise. They looked like they actually wanted what was best for Egypt, from what is seen there though, it looks like they quite possibly had other agendas. Still, I'm sure we don't know all of the story and you never know when things might get better.

Also, you cannot tell how fucking glad I am somebody made a post that wasn't BFN's weird right-wing shit. Keep on meaning to do it but wayyy too lazy, so kudos to you for actually pulling through.

4 Name: anubis!AnUBiS6/LQ : 2013-07-03 13:24 ID:E/ZraaL5 [Del]

>>3 Thanks :). Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to go on a reliable new site, find one good story, post it here, and post some commentary.

>>3 The great part is opposition doesn't want to block out the Muslim Brotherhood. They want to cooperate. And yeah, democracy doesn't make everything better, it's not the best thing for every country. I think the problem with America getting involved in everyone else's shit is we try to force everyone into a democracy even it they're not ready for it. Yes, we've helped get rid of some bad people, but we've also helped bad people take power.

These people need to create a new government for themselves, by themselves, of themselves, without outside involvement. We can only hope they find the right path for them.

5 Name: R : 2013-07-03 13:35 ID:7j15x29H [Del]

It doesn't help any that the US government is sending troops.

6 Name: Solace !o0GOqY0U0w : 2013-07-03 13:56 ID:Vp2k0ipI [Del]

>>4 >>5 America has turned into a self instated, over-protective mother of the world. Of course, we can't blame America for that, it is the first country to get *this* much power, it just happens that mass-produced Capitalism is the first formula that works kind of okay.

I don't think humanity will ever function correctly, we are so surrounded and consumed by a small bubble of Western countries we forget that a decent amount of other countries are having serious issues, what with human nature doing what human nature does.

Faith could be just the right thing in Egypt's scenario. Hopefully, the Muslim Brotherhood wont abuse the power instated upon them but will rather use their religion in a more productive sense. Religion can be used to do amazing things, let's just hope it demonstrates that.

7 Name: anubis!AnUBiS6/LQ : 2013-07-03 15:24 ID:E/ZraaL5 [Del]

Update

Egyptian military ousts Morsi, suspends constitution

So the military has officially outed Morsi and has instituted the chief of Egypt's constitutional court as temporary president. This president will have the power to declare new laws during this period of change. The government is warning that considerable bloodshed could occur where crowds of pro- and anti-government protesters have gathered in Cairo.

The U.S. Embassy in Cairo ordered the mandatory evacuation of all nonessential personnel. The military has deployed troops, including armored vehicles, to areas areas that Morsi's supporters have gathered. The Muslim Brotherhood is still calling for all Morsi's supporters to come out into the streets despite the roadblocks and the presence of the army.

The US government insists that it is not taking sides in this crisis. However, an official from the State Department criticized Morsi for failing to reach out to the protesters.

I would like to point out that even people that Morsi appointed are against him, including General Sissi, one of the military officials who helped to overthrow him. I agree with the Obama administration's decision to not take sides, it really isn't our place at this point. I just hope that they can resolve this more peacefully than they are right now.

8 Name: R : 2013-07-03 17:20 ID:7j15x29H [Del]

US government needs to LEAVE EGPYT ALONE. The citizens don't want intervention, respect their request. I'm getting sick and tired of the US government policing the world.

9 Name: Ria : 2013-07-03 17:50 ID:pR+wGw+D [Del]

I would like to be optimist but I don't really understand what the Egyptians want. I could see what they want when they toppled Hosni Mubarak (he was a dictator, he had been ruling for so long and had gathered substantial amount of wealth for his cronies), but what exactly did they want from Morsi? I know that some of them said they did not want Islamic fundamentalists at the top, did not want sharia law. But these people who did not want Morsi and Muslim Brotherhoods were Muslims. One Egyptian tweet I stumbled upon said that democracy under Morsi had turned sour, but it was just one year since the first legal election. Shouldn't they wait a bit longer for change to take place? There wasn't much that could be achieved in one year, considering how disadvantaged Egypt had been economically and infrastructure-wise, not to mention the many daily conflicts it had.

I agree though with >>8 and >>6. It bothers me the way US thinks it must be involved in everything (that will benefit it, of course).

10 Name: sleepology !CHs4eVJ3O2 : 2013-07-03 19:12 ID:/paKCtOX [Del]

The us is a world power. Cant just go "well you guys, guess youre on your own, see ya never!"

11 Name: Sejin !PKt//nzxc2 : 2013-07-03 19:37 ID:galrkOUK [Del]

>>9 I agree though with >>8 and >>6. It bothers me the way US thinks it must be involved in everything (that will benefit it, of course).

But that's what governments do. In our current, globalized world, governments have interests that are not always right in their backyard, so to speak. A nation's government pursues those interests because they are seen to provide benefits to that nation, and possibly also its allies. These benefits could be anything from supplies like oil to a less hostile government being in control of a country. They essentially have a list of interests, with the most important at the top. In this particular case, if a specific end result of this current turmoil in Egypt would be more beneficial to the U.S. (e.g., a government that would be more willing to work with the U.S. and its allies as opposed to one that would be vehemently, stubbornly anti-U.S.), and if it's high enough up on the list, then the U.S. government would likely try to intervene in such a way that is at least adequate to bring about their desired result.

The reason the items on the list are prioritized in the first place is because resources are finite. The U.S., despite all the barking that we sometimes hear, is incapable of being the global police because it doesn't have enough resources. That's where diplomacy comes in, trying to achieve a favorable result through political give and take. The reason that it seems like the U.S. is always the one throwing its military and diplomatic weight around to get what it wants is because it IS the one doing those things. It has those advantages and it tries to use them to get what it needs or wants for itself. It's not always fair, and it's not always what seems best from a moralistic or idealistic standpoint. Whether or not we like it, that is the current reality.

I really do wish that the whole of humanity was less selfish and more altruistic and understanding of difference, but that's currently not the case. Hence, most people tend to look after themselves first when it really comes down to it. The effect is even stronger if it's something like a government looking after millions of citizens as well as its own prosperity.

The thing I've realized about being idealistic is that, if you want to improve something, you can't deny what the thing is currently like, regardless of how much you may dislike it, disagree with it, think it's wrong, etc. That kind of naive idealism won't get you very far towards reaching your goals. Using practical idealism, or realistic idealism, if you understand and acknowledge the current, less-than-ideal reality, you're more able to see how you can implement your ideals in a way that others can accept, and how to make that implementation more likely to endure so you can build off of it.

A metaphor I came up with is a train. Say there's a train. Let's call it the reality train. It has 100 cars. Let's call the train you want the ideal train. It also has 100 cars. If you run the ideal train headlong against the reality train, you'll get nowhere. However, if you run the ideal train alongside the reality train, switching out reality cars for ideal cars one at a time (implementing idealistic ideas into the current system bit by bit), the reality train will gradually come to look more and more like the ideal train. It may never fully become the ideal train, but because you were able to switch, say, 70 of the 100 cars out of the reality train and replace them with 70 ideal cars in such a way that those ideal cars weren't replaced again with reality cars, you've made considerable, LASTING progress toward an ideal world that you can continue to build on.

12 Name: anubis!AnUBiS6/LQ : 2013-07-03 19:43 ID:E/ZraaL5 [Del]

>>10 Just because the US is a world power does not mean that we as a nation should control how the other nations are run.

>>11 Firstly, nice metaphor. Now, while I know it is important for the US to protect its interests I don't believe it has a right to many of those interests. We don't have a right to the oil in other countries and we should not help leaders who would be bad for that country take power just because they would play nice with us. I believe that our generation can change that, but only if we do hold on to our idealism while embracing reality. So, I guess I agree with you.

13 Name: Ria : 2013-07-03 21:13 ID:pR+wGw+D [Del]

But hey, we are talking about Egypt. Why do everytime we talk about conflicts in other countries, the question about US involvement must spring up? Yes, I know that it is inevitable considering the size of US economy and military power, etc. But apart from what US can do to other countries, there are other things that can be focused on. Domestic factors, for example.

14 Name: Solace !5RRtZawAKg : 2013-07-03 21:22 ID:Vp2k0ipI [Del]

This is the first 3rd world revolution I have seen where it isn't just everybody trying to take power. It's everybody trying to look like the good guys while taking power, protestors hugging the army, army calling for diplomatic reforms, TMB calling for peaceful protests. This one is actually going pretty calmly if you compare it to countries like Libya and Syria.

15 Name: anubis!AnUBiS6/LQ : 2013-07-03 21:28 ID:E/ZraaL5 [Del]

>>14 People are dying, women are being raped, people are being beaten for what they believe in. The mass slaughter may not have started, but this is not peaceful.

16 Name: Solace !o0GOqY0U0w : 2013-07-03 21:46 ID:Vp2k0ipI [Del]

>>15 Quickly compare the situation to the one in Syria and it becomes pretty much a hippie commune. Both TMB and the military are using diplomatic appeals and sound logic; it is the civilians doing the rioting.

17 Name: anubis!AnUBiS6/LQ : 2013-07-03 21:56 ID:E/ZraaL5 [Del]

>>16 Sure, compared to Syria. Compared to one of the worst places on earth at the moment. I'm sorry, but 40 people dead in one day from riots before Morsi was even kicked out does not bode well for the next few days. Plus, the military has sent armored vehicles to the areas that the Muslim Brotherhood are gathering and has set up roadblocks to prevent them from gathering. Suppressing the right to assemble is never a good sign. Maybe it's just that I don't trust them to keep it peaceful.

18 Name: Solace !o0GOqY0U0w : 2013-07-03 22:38 ID:Vp2k0ipI [Del]

>>17 40 people dead in a day is actually kind of average, you can't expect a nation like that not to be turbulent; especially when coming out from a horrible dictator. I know blah blah blah, objectifying human life and such, but in this situation it is necessary. The military (this is all in comparison) is being extremely diplomatic about the coup de tat; they haven't opened fire, are objectively not taking aggressive sides in the protests and have even issued a new constitutional government. The right to assemble often turns into the asserted right to riot, you can't blame them for wanting to keep the peace. The worst time would be directly before and after Morsi was kicked out anyway, that would be when the influx of anger and hatred would be at it's high point.

19 Name: Ria : 2013-07-04 04:46 ID:pR+wGw+D [Del]

>>18 Doesn't mean they can't be heading in the direction of Syria. What will happen after this? Another election which will be called illegitimate if people are not happy with it or another dictatorship? Or is it possible those people want a military regime?

20 Name: Solace !o0GOqY0U0w : 2013-07-04 10:47 ID:Vp2k0ipI [Del]

>>19 Syria did not evolve like this at all; a lot of what stemmed it's violence was non diplomatic religion fighting for dominance. Egypt is being too first-wordly about it to suddenly dissolve into shit. Heed my words, Egypt will get worse in the next year but improve in the next 5.

21 Name: anubis!AnUBiS6/LQ : 2013-07-05 12:18 ID:E/ZraaL5 [Del]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23202096

So apparently the Muslim Brotherhood is getting rowdy the military started shooting at them.

22 Name: anubis!AnUBiS6/LQ : 2013-07-05 13:33 ID:E/ZraaL5 [Del]

Bumping another non-bullshit thread.

23 Name: Ria : 2013-07-06 05:50 ID:pR+wGw+D [Del]

Some people said that the Muslim Brotherhoods, during the previous Revolution to overthrow Mubarak, was just following the flow of the Revolutionaries's desire. I don't think so. I have met some Egyptians who were also pro-MB and heard them talking about flying back to Egypt from other countries when they heard about what happened in their home country. They wanted to be part of the Revolution, part of the change. Not caring whether or not they were MB, these people were Egyptians and they were full of hope. And their faces literally lit up with it.

Which was why I feel sad seeing how things turn out. The thing about politics is we won't know what will happen until it happens. Until then will we be able to analyse why things go the way they did. But I dared not to be so optimist about Egypt. I don't think a civil war is not possible there.

Maybe Morsi was never a President material. And it had nothing to do with him being MB or Islamist. He was an idealist with a dream for an Islamic state, but when you were a leader it was never one interest that you had to take care about. He should have emulated Turkey. They have Islamist government but secular constitution. Not an ideal if you are MB, I must say, but the world rarely give space for idealists so sometimes we must make sacrifice.

Just an opinion.

24 Name: Hatash!HATStoI1IE : 2013-07-07 17:06 ID:hi0FosTd [Del]

^

25 Name: Solace !o0GOqY0U0w : 2013-07-15 11:14 ID:yQ+iJ2BW [Del]

Bumping this because the topic could definitely be explored more.

26 Name: Ritsucka : 2013-07-15 15:45 ID:ckTvnvO7 [Del]

bump

27 Name: Anugar !8wy2pTNghM : 2013-07-17 09:22 ID:6mFB99lI [Del]

bump